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Dublin: 11 °C Monday 20 May, 2013

Gardaí “won’t be sitting idly by” if pay cuts are proposed

The Garda Representative Association did not enter negotiations on the Croke Park Extensions – but if cuts are proposed, it may encourage members to begin industrial action.

FILE
FILE
Image: Mark Stedman/Photocall Ireland

GARDAÍ COULD UNDERTAKE some form of industrial action if pay cuts are proposed, the president of the Garda Representative Association John Parker said today.

The GRA did not – despite some reports to the contrary – enter into negotiations for the Croke Park extension talks, Parker told TheJournal.ie. Rather, they attended a briefing meeting and then decided not to proceed with negotiations.

We have been through situations similar to this over a vast number of years. Our executive would have met and discussed some of the same issues over the years.
We know what’s available to use.

Garda financial problems

Parker said that because the GRA meeting was rescheduled due to the tragic death of murdered Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe, they had time to receive feedback from gardaí around the country about their own financial issues.

Parker said that some gardaí have been experiencing negative equity and problems paying back loans or credit card bills, while anecodotal reports suggest that the garda Credit Unions have had to contact members who had defaulted.

He described how some gardaí under older roster agreements would sleep in stations to save money instead of making the journey home.

“Going on some of the matters that came into us, we know we will have the support of the vast majority of people,” said Parker.

He noted that there are a lot of garda members willing to act unilaterally outside of the GRA and initiate industrial action if they feel it is needed, but the association is not encouraging break-offs to do this. “A break off won’t solve anything,” said Parker.

Parker said the GRA will stick to the Croke Park Agreement, and that they would have no problem with possible work practice changes, but they draw the line at anything pay-related. He noted that gardaí took pay cuts before the CPA, as the Government wanted the pay cuts up-front.

“If we are facing cuts then we have an industrial relations issue on board. We won’t be sitting idling by,” he said, describing how they could introduce work-to-rule type initiatives.

We make ourselves available plenty of times out-of-hours. We [do] a lot of tasks we are not expected to.

Gardaí are legally forbidden from undertaking industrial action but in times past have phoned in sick in large numbers over certain issues. Parker said that gardaí could turn off “the goodwill tap”.

Station closures

Regarding station closures, Parker said that in the next year there may another 100 – 150 stations shut. This would mean that some of the stations the gardaí were moved into would themselves face closure.

Parker has also said he asked Minister for Justice Alan Shatter to “be factual and not misleading in his press statements”, as figures released about freeing up garda manpower did not reflect the reality of how many gardaí were being freed up and for how many hours.

Parker said garda resources “are drained” and that manpower will approach crisis level in the near future. Even if a recruitment campaign is begun this year, and if training is sped up, he doesn’t believe it will begin to solve manpower problems, and could lead to “serious deficiencies”.

Gardaí who do not have a station spend time patroling and also hold clinics in community centres or similar, which Parker acknowledged can “put extra travel and inconvenience on people, especially elderly people”.

According to Parker, gardaí do have the facility to have the keys to stations, so if they are passing an area and dealing with a car accident for example, there is a facility there to access the station.

Read: It’s not on’ – Garda Commissioner critical of work-to-rule, ‘blue flu’ threats>

Read: Gardaí ‘will not accept pay cuts’ as sergeants question Shatter figures>

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Comments (157 Comments)

  • Stand strong, it’s a thankless job. If they cut Gardai now it will never stop..

    Reply
    • You right eddie..The Public sector have more than paid their fair share.. There’s not a word of the semi state wage monsters taking cuts on board. Esb for example. Average wage is over €80k they got a pay rise of over 15% in 2010, don’t pay PRD , & get a discount on their home domestic esb bill of up to 20%..I’m sure it’s the same at eircom, bord gais, & so on..sell them off to raise revenue.. make them competitive & reduce everyone’s domestic household bills.. It will free up millions that the government would get 23% vat on everything we spend while keeping jobs because we’re spending again..

      Reply
    • Agreed, and also a refusal to work overtime. Lets see how Croke Park, The Aviva and other events work without overtime. Also, how much revenue is generated from issuing FCPS’s? Traffic Corps can be vital here. Untrained drivers refuse to drive until properly trained. There’s no give, only take from the government and the members are picking up the slack for free. How much Garda time is used each day for non Garda matters? Maybe they should be filtered too so that anything that isn’t a Garda matter is refused. Time to stand up and be counted. Broken and out of date equipment in stations where members need to go to other district to photocopy or print. Ridiculous!! How about an auditor for free legal aid to see how much money is being spent unnecessarily? Multiple appearance dates in court and a guilty plea eventually. Money making racket! How about the money spent on doctors calling to stations for prisoners with no medical condition/illness just to waste money? People getting themselves arrested to get free methadone at a cost to the tax payer! Lets put the truth out there. Gardai aren’t sitting around rubbing their hands counting their fat salary, most are flat broke and working 10 hours a day for six days, that’s a 60 hour week. How much more can they be expected to work? Enough is enough. GRA, get your finger out. You’re being paid to represent your members, not go on junkets on their money!

      Reply
    • Mick 05/02/13 #

      €60 million to be taken from the Garda pay budget is announced the same week as a €90.25 million overpayment in social welfare payments . Would it not make simple sense to take some Gardai into welfare on a temporary basis to sort out the giant elephant in the room. Is it just to easy to attack those who work and pay tax rather than those who are fraudulently claiming and taking from those who really need welfare !

      Reply
    • Why don’t public servants pay PRSI?

      Reply
    • @ Eoin,

      That’ll go down well

      Reply
    • I don’t know Eoin, tell us why public servants don’t pay prsi?

      Reply
    • Where do you get your information from? Public servants pay PRSI and Tax like everyone else.

      Reply
    • I thought that. And benchmarking small print with “upwards only”. No sympathy at. Everyone else crippled. I can sympathise with people not wanting pay cuts, but ffs, join the club. Bloody unions. Destroying this country.

      Reply
    • And pension related tax… More misinformation from a blueshirt

      Reply
    • What??? Is that a serious question? Do you really think public servants don’t pay prsi? Are you just badly informed or a propaganda merchant?

      Reply
    • You though? What did you use?

      Reply
    • johnny 05/02/13 #

      What?

      Reply
    • He is right to an extent. Some older civil servants do not pay the same PRSI as everyone else.
      It was a deal made for people on an older system. They were given the option to pay a special rate. So there are civil servants that don’t pay prsi as it is called something else.

      Reply
    • But they pay “something”

      A tax by ant other name is still a tax

      Reply
    • 500% difference in the rate is pretty big . I think it maybe more too.

      Reply
    • Well said

      Reply
    • Are you having a laugh? Eoin

      Reply
    • Yeah cal like the 300 allowances we all receive and the big overtime payment we get even though we haven’t worked the overtime

      Reply
    • It is true they pay PRSI at a lesser rate.

      Reply
    • bud61193 05/02/13 #

      Well jack, you hit several nails on the head there, why not double up remand escorts with the prison service, our guys just collect them at prison and drop them off to Garda at courts, and then we have to bring them back.
      The prison service are totally geared up to bring them at no cost if they are going to court anyway, and they can bring them back or be released would save 1/4 of the needed 60 million at no cost, NO NEED FOR PAY CUT THEN

      Reply
    • Who’s gonna police the police protest .

      Reply
    • Of course they do!!

      Reply
  • How can somebody on over 150k a year tell somebody who works harder puts his life on the line every working day and earns less than 40. You have to take a pay cut .that takes some neck Mr shatter you muppet

    Reply
    • Upper ranks took 2% cut but most guards have taken realistically 30 to 40% in some cases even more. Back in the boom with most guards especially the young ones earned about 30k up to 35k but boosted that on overtime and facilitating the government using own cars to travel to events or courts. So with total erradication of overtime higher taxes if there was overtime with usc and other bits and bobs such as allowances being hit for nights guards have been whipped out.

      There was even in 80s overtime in guards and banks added in overtime to homeloans as it was guaranteed there would be x amount a month.

      If someone loses job thats terrible but banks will deal with you. Try dealing with them if you in employment they just will want to bleed you.

      The oz police are looking for guards if they try and sit more some will go some will just quit as they would do better on social welfare. Sad that one of the most important jobs out there is being destroyed slowly.

      Reply
  • Mick 05/02/13 #

    Yesterday’s comments and indeed the sheer level of remoteness and disconnect shown by Commissioner Callinan towards those on the front, illustrate everything that is wrong with the political appointment of the head of a police force .
    I actually, am embarrassed on his behalf at times when I see the price he willingly pays for his two year extension of term by Mr. Shatter.
    For An Garda Síochána not to have the support of the Minister is one thing but for the Commissioner to advocate any and all of his policies without a hint of rebuttal or display of respect for the truth, which is blindingly obvious to the vast majority of the population as displayed by recent outpouring, can only lead the force to despair.
    It might well be time that some action is taken not only for pay conditions but on behalf of the greater good of society before it is too late.

    Reply
    • Excellent comment.. its high time recruitment, transfers, appoinments and promotions are regulated by an indepenent body such as the already in place garda inspecrorate for transparency and fairness. Political appoinments and interference from goverments who only care about the next few years to the next election is negligent and wrong amd produces goverment mouth pieces like callinan. As regards police pay even poorer countries always try to maintain pay because if it doesnt it could breed corruption.

      Reply
    • Jason, that corruption point among others is exactly what myself and hubby are discussing at the minute-desperate people do desperate things.

      Reply
  • Best of luck to you all and I hope other Unions get behind you too A thankless job but an honourable one

    Reply
  • About time. A blue flu this Saturday during the protests might help redress the imbalance between we the people and our puppet government.

    Ah well, I can dream…..

    Reply
    • No blue flu it’s not fair on the ordinary workers and our families who may need us to be without us due to the greed and incompetence and ignorance of others. We need to educate the general public just how low our wages are and how high our statutory deductions/taxes are. Some fierce ignorant people out there

      Reply
  • Turning off the “Good-will tap” would be a great start. I think a work to rule would make a difference too, given we’re the most flexible organisation in the country!

    Reply
  • They have a hard job so pay them accordingly. Go out for a beer in most towns in Ireland and see the people the Garda have to deal with . They are not on 92 k without expenses and allowances like the lowest paid boys in the Dail. Viva le revolution

    Reply
    • Sorry just because a job is hard doesn’t mean you get paid more. It is more to do with how difficult it is to learn.
      Your average fast food worker puts up with similar abuse as Garda for a prolonged period every weekend. Security personnel in shops and bars also have similar experiences too.

      Reply
    • Eh I’m not sure how many fast good workers have had to wrestle with a junkie with a blood filled syringe or get blood spat in the face from a person who has HIV, not sure how many fast food workers get rammed by cars and vans while serving a bag of chips. Again not sure how many fast food workers have had someone attack them with a machete while trying to stop him punching the lights out of his wife, girlfriend or child….., I have no problem people not agreeing with the Guards but please do not compare my job with that of a fast food worker or any other worker for that matter as they can’t be compared like for like.

      Reply
    • That has to be the worst comparison I’ve ever read.

      Reply
  • ‘blue flu’

    Reply
    • Might i be so bold to suggest that the first of a series. Of
      “. Blue Flue”. Days should coincide with one of the eu. Summit days scheduled. For the coming months.

      Reply
    • Unfortunately the GRA won’t promote a Blu flu as anyone encouraging it can be dismissed. There are lots of alternatives like I suggested earlier if everyone stands together.

      1. Refuse ANY overtime
      2. Use of own equipment to cease immediately, phones/laptops even torches.
      3. Unqualified drivers refuse to drive patrol cars until properly trained.
      4. Refuse to take any calls of a non Garda nature.
      5. Consider the revenue generated by FCPS and vehicle seizures.
      6. Detective ‘aids’ to cease immediately, either members are appointed detectives or the do not work in plainclothes.
      7. Members taken from Compol to make up 5th unit cease their previous Compol activity until reinstated. No more double jobbing.
      8. Enforce fully the 14 day rule for change of shift.
      9. Members insist on using public transport while on duty for court.
      10. ANY extra duty be claimed as overtime like that extra half hour at the end of a shift when delayed at a call.
      11. Members without firearms training refuse to attend firearm related and armed incidents.
      12. Unarmed members whether trained or not, refuse to attend firearms related incidents.
      13. Untrained drivers (who don’t comply with point 3 above)refuse to use lights and sirens attending calls.
      14. Drivers refuse to drive sub standard vehicles.
      15. Question the health and safety of working a 60 hour working week.

      Reply
    • * aides, stupid phone!!

      Reply
    • Couldn’t agree with u more and are there not a few big sporting days coming up in the aviva and croke park????

      Reply
    • The gloves are off at last. It just goes to show how caught up in making savings this bunch of half wits have become. If by taking more from our frontline security services forces the decent citizens of Ireland to fight back, then so be it. The arrogance of the bastards in power knows no limits.

      Reply
    • Bring on the work to rule, it’s time for the general public to see what public sector workers do on their time off. my blood boils with the ignorant and flimsy comments on many of the newspapers and websites. Im a secondary school teacher and here is a list if all the non teaching stuff i did today, all of which I do for the good of the school but am sick and tired of getting no credit or acknowledgment for.

      1 – made 5/6 phone calls on personal mobile to arrange sports matches.

      2 – answered about a dozen emails

      3 – researched the development of a school app

      4 – drove 4 students to the local sports field for a match

      5 – planned and discussed a school tour (which will take me away from my family on my midterm holidays for 6 days)

      6 – paid a bill from with my own money cos petty cash was empty

      7 – drove 20 min out of my way on the trip home to pick up tickets for a match.

      8 – had parents arrived unannounced at school during lunch (which is 30 min long) to complain that there son was only a sub on the rugby team

      9 – printed posters for a colleague

      10 – rang a parent cos her son felt ill and wanted some paracetamol

      11 – researched and attempted to fix a broken computer, must ring dell tomorrow (prob 40 min call) to hopefully solve

      I’ve prob forgotten a dozen more.

      Bring on industrial action, I’m ready for the fight, are the public ready for the ramifications? I doubt it.

      Reply
    • There’s more than one way to skin a cat!

      Reply
    • @ jack. I think all your suggestions sound quite reasonable and if adhered to I think would make a better service and at a lower cost. Lets hope they go with it.

      Reply
    • @ Eric. You have fairly shot yourself in the foot. Your list of minor tasks all of which I’m sure you finished by 6pm are what people in private sector jobs do every day. It’s called a job. Plus they don’t get 4 months plus holidays and guaranteed pensions. You teachers are hilarious.

      Reply
    • You should have became a teacher Simon, by your reasoning it sounds like a very handy number.

      Reply
    • Hi Simon, thanks once again for your insightful observations, if I claimed that the list of things I did were major ill withdraw it the claim…. But I never did.

      I was giving a list of things I did outside of my paid working hours to highlight examples of what teachers and all public servants do, the many many things that don’t get acknowledged when the media preach about the easily and lazy lives of PS workers.

      Simon I’m sure if added up all the time dealing with these minors issues it took well over two hours of my non-working day, never mind my class prep and corrections which I did when I came home.

      Simon you have quiet strong opinions, thankfully most people don’t agree with you. I’m sure you’ll eventually change your mind, perhaps it’ll be when your kids have their minor issues eased at school, or when you have a minor ailment that takes you into hospital or perhaps if you suffer a minor brush with criminality you’ll see the value on the gardai. One day Simon you’ll change your mind about the PS and only then will you realize the folly of your current ideals.

      Reply
    • @ Eric. Only a school teacher could be as smug and as patronizing as that answer. And top marks for avoiding addressing any of the points I made. Top of the class son. Sorry if I have disturbed your massive “class prep”. The curriculum remains unchanged yet after year, don’t try and kid a kidder.

      Reply
  • I have the answer. Gardai get no allowances. They all work 9am to 6pm Monday to Friday. No Gardai outside these hours and none at weekends. This is just like the private sector.

    Reply
    • Because everybody works 9-5 and Garda are really special by being different.
      Try visiting two countries in the same day doing a 20 hour day for no extra money. While being back in work the next with 4 hours sleep.
      24 hours availability on your phone no matter the day.
      Some of don’t get extra pay to learn a new computer system. Never heard of it in the private sector.

      Reply
    • kal im pretty sure thats illegal under the working time directives. You might wanna consult with your union there

      Reply
    • That just illustrates a complete lack of understanding. If it has to be done to keep a company going you do it and don’t complain. We don’t all have unions to run to

      Reply
    • well with those hours only natural that company is going under. might made sure they can pay you a good redundancy. noone would work those hours my friend unless they owned the company

      Reply
  • Where is Joe O’Shea (aka Alan Shatter), he usually spouts some crap when Guards are mentioned.

    Reply
  • The guards are in a much more stronger position than most other sections of society to fight back against this one sided austerity.

    every other section of society should be backing them. This could be the nudge that everyone else needs to get up off their behinds and shout enough is enough!

    Reply
  • Tony 05/02/13 #

    Setting aside the current crisis how do we expect the next generation of Gardai to be attracted to joining the force (when they start recruiting again) if the pay and conditions for such a dangerous job are so poor? I am very hopeful the position the Gardai are in mean that someone in Government might take notice because they sure arent listening to the general public.

    Reply
  • I support all of our front line public service men and women 100%. They should never be expected to give up their pay AND they should never be left under resourced! These are the people who serve, protect rescue individuals everyday without thanks or reward! Leave them alone Shatter!

    Reply
  • Government needs to cop-on!

    Reply
  • I see the so called expert negotiation teams of SIPTU and IMPACT are warning their members through the media that the government will get tough and legislate if croake park 2 cannot be agreed i thought unions we’re there to stand up to bullies not encourage your members to be bullied

    Reply
    • Steady on there lads you’re beginning to point the finger at your fellow Civil Servants who are not part of the 24 hour Alliance! Divide and conquer when we must all stand shoulder to shoulder!

      Reply
  • Here we go again, everytime public sector pay comes up someone compares Irish police/fire/nurse pay to those on the continent. There is never a mention of economy of scale. A public servant in [country x] gets paid less because property, cars, food etc are proportionately cheaper there.

    EVERYONE gets paid less in France because a bottle of wine costs €2!

    Back up your statements with some factual, unbiased evidence!

    Reply
  • Stop issuing fcps’s. that’ll hit their pockets. That’s my first step.

    Reply
  • Que the trolls coming out from under their rocks on this topic!

    Reply
  • I said it before and I will say it again , the biggest coups bertie ahern and brian cowan ever pulled off was when the devided and concoured , they got the public and private sectors against each other and the idiot leaders in both sectors were so short sighted and blinded by greed that they just did not see it , now kenny and co are following suit and guess what , the idiot leaders will do the same again , and the old reliables are in the firing line again
    1 The Nurses : As we all know nursing is a vocation and the hse and politians know it too , they can do what they like because they know the Nurses and Doctors will not put the lives of the patiences at risk
    2 The Guards : Again as we are only too well aware the Guards are over worked under staffed and under resorced and these politians and faceless civil servents know they can push them around to the point where gardai are putting their lives at risk every day , they took an Oath to protect and defend the public , an Oath they take very seriously ( pity the ministers could not do the same )
    3 The Defence Forces , Fire Brigade , Prison Officers and many many more both public and private sectors are getting hammered , lets call a spade a spade the ministers have their pensions and dont give a damm about anyone else , Labor will go the same way the greens did enda and co will get kicked out Sell their Black Souls Back to the Devil again and Lie their way bact into politics for another couple of years , if F/F want to get bact into power all they have to do is this Promise that the first thing they will do is scrap the property tax , the water meter charges, and the septic tank charges and keep the promises , I dont think they have the nerve to do it.

    Reply
  • Anyone know the typical salary (per annum) of a rank & file garda?

    Reply
  • Leadership across the board within the unions need to be looked at we need strong leaders that will stand up and say enough is enough the workers today are been robbed by the fat cats sitting in the dail getting paid for doing a job they are not doing , its easy to go to work and sit idle week in and week out just collect the fat pay check knowing what is happening within the country is wrong , they elected to repesent the people something they seem to have forgot , or maybee they are too busy collecting their expensis to have any time to do what they were elected to do.

    Reply
  • Would expect the nursing and front line union’s to follow the lead of the guards this week this will bring pressure on the big three SIPTU IMPACT and UNITE to support however very important its not being done to look good for the members and return by the back door under some excuse union’s were formed to protect and improve their members interests not discuss ways of removing what was fought for and won over many many years for the benefit of bankers and politicians

    Reply
  • Politicians and their high paid mates(senior civil servants),should be getting hit with moat of the cuts.
    The gardai put their lives on the line to keep us safe every day.
    Enda and co should be ashamed of themselves.

    Reply
  • The governments destabilization of the country continues the breakdown in services continues they will throw this country into chaos and will then crackdown hard on those who try to defend it .

    Reply
  • Lu 05/02/13 #

    There’s always the few that won’t work to rule. It will never work.

    Reply
  • I’d love to see the Gardai riot, they’d show us a thing or two.

    Reply
  • Why aren’t the GRA taking part in the ICTU anti austerity march on Saturday? This is the type of carry on that infuriates members. If they are affiliated then they should be there!

    Reply
    • GRA are not a trade union and are not affiliated to ICTU. This march has specific spots allocated in the line out to unions etc. if GRA were to march they would have to just make up the numbers behind one of the unions banners….

      Reply
  • So for a standard rank and file Guard; what are they paid

    How much is the rent allowance; is doesnt say in the .pdf

    Are these allowances tax free?

    Its kinda hard to say whether they are over / under paid; when we cant see what average guard is getting paid – inc. allowances; rent, overtime etc…

    Is there no overall breakdown from any industry body? that says what the average “all in” salary is…..

    I know a guard who is pulling in equivlant 60k+ a year with 12 yrs experience ; he says this includes all the standard allowances he gets & some over-time every week / bank holidays etc..

    … I am not sure how “normal” this is… or if he is an exception…

    Any ideas?

    Reply
  • Here’s a list of some of the allowances,

    http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Garda-Pay-and-Allowances.pdf

    Are none of these up for discussion?

    Reply
    • Why do you troll every issue relating to people standing up against cuts to they’re wages. Why are you so against people defending their pay?

      Reply
    • The rank and file get the following allowance… Boot allowance, shift allowance…the others refer to specialised units… And some are never ckaimed

      Reply
    • Tony 05/02/13 #

      Hey Liam dont be letting the facts get in the way of Pierces sensationalism.

      Reply
    • No. NO Pay cuts are up for discussion ‘enda’ story .

      Reply
    • piohmy 05/02/13 #

      Pierce we’ve more than paid out share.. What’s infuriating is listening to 166 TD,s who ran up a bill of over €7.2 million in expenses last year say we need to pay more..the public sector is only 15% of the Irish work force yet they expect us to take cut after cut going on nearly 5 years now.. We’re all in massive debt, theres no legislation to help us, it’s death by a thousand cuts..

      Reply
    • Dermot, I don’t care how much people get paid for doing a job, I do care how my taxes are spent and that’s why these types of subjects interest me. Not for nothing but I was against the graduate nurse scheme, but I guess you missed that.

      Liam, if the other allowances are just for specialist groups or are never claimed then what’s the problem.

      Tony, I don’t think it’s sensationalism to quote a relevant document.

      Piohmy, you have you paid out more than your share, everybody has paid more than their share.

      Reply
    • Problem us that their wheeled out without explanation.. And the public assumes that ALL Gardai get ALL the allowances..

      I know there is only 2 allowances there for the rank and file, but they make up 1/3 of the weekly wage.. A 3% pay reduction? No ta!

      Reply
    • That should read 33%

      Feckin autocorrect:-)

      Reply
    • People who don’t understand pay structure always quote allowances as if they are magic beans.
      Allowances are just a way of boosting a low basic pay. They were brought in over the years so that basic pay did not have to be increased. What they are called is not relative. May as well call one a toothbrush allowance. They should be treated as basic pay and therefore protected.

      Reply
    • The bottom line is that Gardai amongst other frontline workers are not going to stand idly by and watch their pay corroded to the same levels as a worker who works core office hours. Why would anybody want to work before 9am, after 5pm, 39 Saturdays and 26 Sundays per year, 9 public holidays, for nothing. It won’t wash. Add in the long Xmas break that many workers get, across the board, and it definitely won’t wash.

      Reply
    • Liam, that seems like a reasonable explanation 33% for overtime and uniform. You have my 100% support there, what does irk me though is when everything is off the table. Your unions do you a disservice by protecting those on very high pay by not even entering into debate about it. Just for the record I would like to see a 10% pay rise for anybody earning under 40K in frontline services, this could be paid with a reduction in salary of people earning over 80K.

      Reply
    • The GRA is a representative body only.. They represent the rank and file members.. They do no represent anyone above garda rank. Certainly not the upper echelons

      Reply
    • If you sit down with them you are prepared to give up something. So fair play to the Garda, they and all front front line have given enough. Shatters buddy the commissioner on €200k+…. That’s where u start..

      Reply
    • @ Dermot. Simple. It’s beyond the means of the exchequer.

      Reply
  • Last time I looked the Gardai,just like the Defence Forces took an oath to serve & protect the state,not protest the state. They need to be reminded of this oath and smarten up.They are entrusted to serve our democratic state in a privileged,powerful & unique position.

    Why is it that the Garda Rep associations always behave in such a petulant unprofessional manner? Why do our Defence Forces always go about their business , suffering just as badly, in a much more stoic professional manner commensurate with their unique role in serving the state?

    “Blue Flu” did a huge dis-service to the many fine Irishmen that served the Gardai faithfully over the years in far tougher times without ever resorting to such gutter tactics. If our Gardai Reps have no pride in their uniform then leave and join a unionised workforce elsewhere.

    Reply
    • Is that you joe?

      Reply
    • Ah ye they took an oath, sure why don’t they do it for free? Awful point you make

      Reply
    • Missed ya joe.

      Mind you protecting the state when the state want protect you is grounds for walkout. I think people would have much more respect for the police of they just walked out. As for army, there is recruitment there is new vehicles and they join on lower pay so would in in lower bracket of tax also. Guards get paid reflecting what they do. Guards prosecute guards have tons of paperwork its a much more responsible position. In army 99% of what you do your told to do. In guards 99% is your own choices. This choices you have to stand over in court of law. Pay should reflect position.

      Reply
    • Neither took an oath to accept without question massive pay reductions while their paymasters preserved for themselves and management grades, lavish pay, conditions and pensions. Nor did anyone swear to “serve and protect” even while denied adequate resources. Gardai are forbidden to strike. You would think that as some compensation for this, that the government would avoid giving them reasons to. It is only when government decides to cynically exploit the fact that they can’t strike, that they are forced to take action such as “blue flu”.

      Reply
    • And sure look on journal 7 guards injured after being rammed yesterday. Do you get rammed spat at attacked with knifes. Do deal with people who try to stab you with infected needle. Do you deal with people who break the law everyday. Do you feel the frustration of seeing elderly people their life saving robbed and knowing who is was but not able to prosecute. Do you deal with rapes. Do you deal with broken violent families. Do you deal with murders. Do you have to look at a body with head blown off. Do you have to see dead kids in traffic accidents.

      If anything guards don’t get paid enough to deal with what has to be witnessed.

      Reply
    • Oath, service and honour wont pay for the weekly shopping or the mortgage at the end of the month. Any highly trained professional in employment deserves to earn a fair wage and enjoy a reasonable standard of living. Guards have been cut so much many have no cash whatsoever left after bills are paid. Any more paycuts will push many into default. Why risk life and limb and not be able to afford to pay your way? Boycott policing of major political event, Gathering events, St Patricks Day parades, Sports events as well as a strict work to rule. Its time to stand up to this government.

      Reply
    • i defaulted. don’t have high rolling lifestyle. hand to mouth even now and just making ends meat. Car died on me last year and while the bill was 700 euro for that it was enough to push me over the edge not to be able to meet payments for over a month.

      anyone who thinks we have lavish lifestyle is way off the mark. not been on a holiday in 4 years cant afford one. but up to now have we complained?? i budget out week to week and id be lucky to see the next payday with a tenner still in pocket. so could i afford more?? nope simple as that.

      mind you i did post yesterday how the state could save millions with garda cars but sure will that happen?? no cos things are just run backwards here.

      Reply
  • So just to be clear. If the pay of the Gardai ISN’T cut, then there will be a lot of idle guards.

    Ok then.

    Reply
  • Al 05/02/13 #

    If you work in a job funded by tax money and the tax take is down you should expect pay cuts. If you worked for a company and it makes massive loss, do you expect your wages to stay the same, NO! Garda who don’t have money to pay back credit cards bills and loans is nothing to do with their salary. Don’t take loans if you can’t afford to pay them back. Negative equity is not an argument either unless they’re selling their house…they’re paid enough: http://www.nospinireland.com/Gardai.html We can’t keep decreasing the number of Garda though!

    Reply
  • “Every rank-and-file garda gets an untaxed rent allowance payment of €4,162 per year, even if they are living in their own house.”
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-let-retired-members-live-on-in-stations-1830419.html

    When the guards opposed removing outrageous allowances like this (except for new entrants), they really didn’t do themselves any favours. The GRA have no interest in policing and serving the community because they are happy to see the size of the force reduced in order to preserve their pay and conditions.

    Reply
    • actually first off .. The indo??? really??? i mean really??

      anyway secondly when a guard earns end of year say 40k on p60 that so called allowance is included into that.

      Reply
    • Don’t feed the troll stewie

      Reply
    • ColindeB rent allowance is taxable . It was increased over the years in lieu of pay increases. The department did this so as not to have a knock on effect on other sectors wages. The Public Accounts Committee stated that it was effectively pay and could be subsumed into the basic pay rate.

      If you are going to quote what you think are garda facts or the GRAs views then either join up the force or be accurate with your trolling…… GRA are not happy for less numbers, GRA has continuously called for immediate recruitment.

      Reply
    • @john

      You’ve already explained this to colindeb the other. He was using a different name and avatar. He has a number of different usernames but the language used is always the same. I would waste my time anymore if I were you.

      Reply
  • A garda with 17 years gets €44k. With allowance and over time that will easily top €50k. That’s pretty handy money for somebody in their late 30′s who has never received a promotion in their lives. That’s also more than a police sergeant gets in France. They also get a nice tax free lump sum when they retire at 55 and a nice pension that they contribute less than 15% of the cost to.

    Even if we wrote off all the bank debt in the morning, we still cannot spend within our means. That means more taxes and more cost cutting.

    I sympathise with guards who are overloaded with debt but they chose to buy up all that property knowing the risks of losing their jobs if they went bankrupt so it’s their problem, not ours.

    Tony. Are you a guard by any chance?

    Reply
    • no, but i am.

      and most of the force is under 10 years service. if you were to look at my p60 you would think not bad but take out prsi take out mandatory contributions to pension (pension is not free) take out USC take out medical insurance (in fairness a guard will be hurt so we need it) its not a whole lot left. not looking for a violin here but id say after everything id have 100 a week to live on that to fuel car, food and bills.

      Guards saddled with debt well see thats an interesting one. lets take a lad from ballydehob in cork. That lad or lassy joins the guards, now as your serving the state you really get no choice where your sent and by and large its gonna be dublin and you have to work your way out which can take i think about 7 years roughly. So guards have no choice but to live in area close to work or on commutable distance. I’m sure the lad from cork would rather live down in cork but has no choice. So rent or get foot on property ladder as is entitlement of every person to be able to have own house. id expect noone to be forced to rent their entire life. But being Dublin have to pay going rate and with most guards under 10 years service and no recruitment in last so many years most of the force had to buy at the inflated rates. sure its case of let buyer beware and free market so yeah your right prices crashed and people just have to live with that. but to cut pay and whatever anyone says i am down easy over 1000 a month then i was in the boom times. people have lost jobs in private sector but there has not been huge paycuts like there has been for public sector front line staff or teachers.

      The money is there, this crap about the state not having money to pay is silly, the money is there. Pay peanuts get monkeys and its about time the government knows we are NOT cheap, we provide a vital service. we are the reason you can sit safely and type and not have anarchy on the streets and your homes getting cleaned out. we are the human face of the state which we protect. We are the ones that end up in hospital to stop criminals from committing crime against you. We are the ones who seek justice for the people and for that reason we have the good will of the nation behind us. I’m proud to be a garda i truly am, but pride wont pay the bills

      Reply
    • Al 05/02/13 #

      @Stewie Griffin your a guard im guessing security… so that’s not a Garda

      Reply
    • Fair play for replying Stewie.

      First up, life is tough for anybody with less than 10 years under their belt. Nobody leaves college and waltzes into a 50k per annum job at google. If you can’t get the invariably low paying starter jobs, jobbridge or the boat are your only options.

      Re rents & mortgages, it’s not really the younger guards putting a roof over themselves that’s the problem. We all know of the “garda landlord phenomenon” and it’s not your peer group that would have been piling up the debt. For your age bracket, everybody else is in the same boat as you, paying way over the odds to prop up a property ponzi scheme. This isn’t a specific garda problem and shouldn’t be treated as such. I pay my rent out of my salary. I don’t get a special allowance to do it and even more to the point, I don’t get to keep that allowance when I no longer rent.

      “people have lost jobs in private sector but there has not been huge paycuts”
      That’s being a bit cheeky. Losing your job is a 100% pay cut. How many of those have there been in jobs wholly funded by the taxpayer? The answer = 0.

      And I’m afraid the money isn’t there. The government pissed away a once off stamp duty windfall to fund benchmarking. It’s gone and it’s never coming back. Everybody needs to adjust to that, not just the guards. We can burn the bondholders (and we should) but even getting rid of the bank debt leaves us in the red.

      Reply
    • well older guards that have retired over the years could have had more then one property from buying back in 80′s and having that paid off invested into rental property and so what if they did. free market after all. no guard in this day and age could do that or even think about that enough issues with looking after the one small place we would have. of course those in private sector who lose jobs take 110% pay cuts but that person is entitled to job seekers as small as it is and rent allowance to cover rent. plus banks far more willing (have no choice ) but to accommodate people when losing employment.

      i pay my rent/mortage out of my salary this misconception that each year we get extra 4k is just not the case. if i earn 40k a year thats included in that. As for the money not being there and this is nothing against the Defence forces but they are recruiting, they are spending money on vehicles. while of course they need them there is no other area of work in this country were vehicles have a harder life then in the guards. Does the defence forces need the extra staff?? i know our manning levels are critical. Could the jeeps they have last one more year as they dont get the hardship ours do. The money is there. this things about the cash not being there is convenient FG spin. Yesterday on another garda topic in the Journal i suggested how the state could save millions on the garda fleet without reducing service. Also, most guards including myself have degrees in other areas before we joined the force. that with our particular management skills would see us earn far more in Private sector then in public of course thats if we were working in public sector same amount of years to be able to command high pay. For what we do we are incredible good value. pay a solicitor to prosecute cases in court like they do in other countries and pay them huge huge fees, we do that here on our salieries. We investigate crime which can be a incredibly demanding process and our skill set would be very valued by companies. Indeed i have seen it previously (not recently mind you) that companies attempted to poach guards for supervisory positions as we have organizational skills and work to deadlines.

      A.I slow (very very slow) clap

      Reply
    • Well said Stewie

      Reply
  • Yeah guys. Let’s keep our police force the best paid in the western world when we’ve got the IMF at the door. #realityiscalling

    Reply
    • Tony 05/02/13 #

      Best paid in Western Europe, care to back that up with some facts ColindeB? And if we have no money why are we spending €370 million on linking up the Luas red and green line….as handy as it will be Id rather walk across town safely.

      Reply
    • Their earnings went up 44% in the period 2000-2007 and with their allowance their pay is way way above what their counterparts in Europe are earning. Benchmarking is only a one-way street obviously…

      Oh and are you honestly suggesting that we should stop all capital investment so we can continue to pay unsustainable current expenditure pushing the public debt even higher? Come up with a better strawman than that mate.

      Reply
    • Rank and file got nil from benchmarking.

      A large part of that increase in wage was due to the unlimited hours overtime which were available… All but gone now…

      Reply
    • Tony 05/02/13 #

      Colinde youd want to check your facts re benchmarking – and you still havent produced anything which compares Garda pay with that of other Western Europe…..you making this stuff up as you go along?
      And I am well aware that capotal investment cannot grind to a halt but the Goverment must prioritise where they spend our money – and Im pretty sure you will find most people would prefer a well resourced professional Garda force than a new Luas line. Dont come on saying we have no money when clearly we do – the Government are just choosing poorly where it is spent, and the cost of the force is not unsustainable if we for example addressed social welfare fraud which stands at over €80million per year – how many tourists do you think will stop coming here if we get a reputation as being a country that isnt safe #imnotyourmate

      Reply
    • A garda with 17 years gets €44k. With allowance and over time that will easily top €50k. That’s pretty handy money for somebody in their late 30′s who has never received a promotion in their lives. That’s also more than a police sergeant gets in France. They also get a nice tax free lump sum when they retire at 55 and a nice pension that they contribute less than 15% of the cost to.

      Even if we wrote off all the bank debt in the morning, we still cannot spend within our means. That means more taxes and more cost cutting.

      I sympathise with guards who are overloaded with debt but they chose to buy up all that property knowing the risks of losing their jobs if they went bankrupt so it’s their problem, not ours.

      Tony. Are you a guard by any chance?

      Reply
    • Colindeb/joe o’shea/hellogoogletracking/ITSstudent.All one and the same I reckon. Time for another new name.

      Reply
    • Colin, I’m a teacher I earn slightly over 50k, my weekly take home pay is €572…. Ain’t I loaded!!!! I’d imagine the gardai are taxed the same.

      Now before you go spouting BS about the way the PS are the best paid in Europe, look into all the facts and expose the hidden terms and conditions that get conveniently neglected by the indo before you become and mount piece for the guys trying to divert the attention from the country’s real problem makers.

      Reply
    • It’s not about Gardai buying property. I am sure many did but so did others of all occupations including self employed people. If they did overload on property they must deal with it. To tarnish all Gardai in this manner is unfair. Seeing as 60% have less than 10 yrs service I doubt very much there are too many property moguls in this band.

      Reply
    • They’re not even the best paid police force on this island ffs!!!

      Reply
    • Tony 06/02/13 #

      Sound logic there Colinde – presume that everyone who objects to destroying our policing force is a Garda. For your information, and call me old fashioned, I’m not a Garda just someone who would prefer to live in a safe and secure society

      Reply
    • ColindeB 06/02/13 #

      @Eric
      Take home pay of €572 is extremely decent and you never have to worry about taking a 100% paycut or not being able to get a job at all. Your employer is bust. Take the adjustment and be grateful you still have a job.

      And as for the allowances, you guys are trying to have it both ways. If it’s part of your “core pay”, then don’t “forget” to quote it when you’re playing poor mouth to the media about how hard things are for you. Taxpayers have had enough of it.

      Fact is that the story last year of how the garda wife couldn’t put food on the table despite being on €65k stuck in the craw for a lot of people. The majority of people in this country are on far less yet they manage to get by and to double the insult, the sums did not remotely add up in that “poor mouth” example.

      Reply
  • I think it is funny that people think they can do another job and earn more. Garda ability to do other jobs is limited to say the least. Few have really got options with their education and attitude like many civil servants.
    Was going to tactful but I’ll get red thumbed anyway. If they actually worked in a service industry they would be fired.
    Shameless behaviour from Garda in the last few years shows that they do not act morally. Events like the May Day violence, donegal corrupt, forced confessions, lying in court etc.. I don’t need to read the papers to see abusive Garda just have to encounter them. Half the problem of people giving them abusive is just a reflection.

    Reply
    • as much as i could not going to entertain that utter misstatement of tripe.

      not joe by any chance

      Reply
    • Your right, all 13000 cops are the same!

      Tell me what u work at so I can make unfair generalisations about your work!

      Troll

      Reply
    • I think we just have a king troll who changes their name everyday. Nobody takes these people seriously so I say let them at it, they just highlight their stupidity with each comment they make.

      Reply
    • Well I work in IT but over multiple industries, countries in state,semi state and private business. Big, small and medium.
      Regular visitors to the Journal know I am not a troll. Maybe the sudden influx of Garda on the site on particular articles just don’t understand blasting a site doesn’t equal public support.
      The Garda selection process is designed to weed out good and bad. They specifically pick people who fit a model. Not all the same but close enough. If it is so bad and they have options leave. The reality is majority don’t have options and will swallow this after mild disruptions.

      Reply
    • as stated in above post most guards have degrees and most have joined from other areas be that teacher to accountants to IT developers. Alot of options out there but not alot of places recruiting in ireland would be leaving to find work.

      If you want to best to come into a job you need to make the pay reflective.

      Reply
    • No way do most Garda have degrees. I know a few and they don’t have degrees. It would be some magical probability that I happen to know the ones without degrees.
      If they do a massive waste of education.
      From knowing them I also know how things operate. Lying about assaults sounds like a nice little way to get revenge and you back up each other regardless. You going to deny that is common?

      Reply
    • 5 out of 7 people in public service have third level qualification, 2 out of 7 in private sector have equivalent , but yeah you’re right – a bunch of unqualified idiots the lot of them

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    • deny?? whats to deny it does not happen simple as.

      vast majority of guard have degrees sorry to inform you

      Reply
    • Well I know your degree isn’t English ;)
      This didn’t happen according to you
      http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0710/1224319721336.html

      http://www.herald.ie/news/gardai-assaulted-man-who-filmed-their-raid-1966471.html

      You seem to think I am some idiot who doesn’t know anything about your job. I have experienced how Garda treat people. I know some better than my own family. I have seen the force be abusive and I am also aware of some of the horrors you deal with.
      You are being disingenuous at the least. Accidentally hitting somebodies head as the are put in a car. Covering for excessive force by another. Saying you saw something to support another. None of this happens according to you. Not a chance you are bloody human and it takes massive morals not to do it. Maybe you never worked in a built up area.
      Not every Garda actively participates but the rarely stick their head up. How is that Garda doing who blew the whistle on penalty points? Kept all his work colleagues?

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    • Sorry to upset you Kal but all Gardai were given a diploma in policing studies when they were attested. A couple of years ago this was upgraded to degree level. So yes all Gardai have a degree of an equivalent

      Reply
    • Forgot to say I expect the red thumbs as no matter what. Some people haven’t figured out that you don’t red thumb a well made point even if it doesn’t match your view.

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    • @paul
      So not degree until then wonder when the diploma people in the force. Education equivalency being used to call it a degree doesn’t mean it as use outside of Garda. A carpenter after apprenticeship will have a degree too soon. Doesn’t mean he can work in high finance. Semantics and missing the point. Change jobs so as your skills are so transferable.

      Reply
    • I can answer this one. Those gardai who prosecuted them?? No the ombusman but guards. You know guards better then your own family. Wow well that says alot about you.

      Hint for you as it will stop you coming into contact with “abusive gardai” STOP BREAKING THE LAW.

      Reply
    • Not the ombusman *** well all guards have degrees but most have degrees from before joining the guards

      Reply
    • @ mr obviously a troll
      You would be amazed to find I close friends I know 30+ year who became Garda.
      Not breaking the law yet I manage to encounter ignorant bully Garda.
      Growing up close to a high crime area I saw how Garda behaved. Backed by Garda I know news reports had what I witness yet Garda here claim it is all myth. No credibility from posters here, no signs of disgust at proven cases and denial it happens.

      Reply
    • what are you smoking kal :)

      like was stated guards who do wrong get prosecuted by guards. again we could look at first case pops into my head the guard arrested last year buying drugs on the quays. its us that go after anyone in our own organisation if there is wrong doing. As a garda one of the minority at this stage with over 10 years service i have not ever seen a guard act in a criminal manner that i would have to cover for and nor would i cover for. someone does something criminal aint putting my job and reputation on the line. so like i said does not happen. When someone quotes donegal and things like that, what happened there ?? thats right these former guards and superintendent were prosecuted by the guards. so your argument is meaningless.

      i have diploma in IT and could at one point program in Java and C++. just off top of my head guys i work with were investment managers bankers one former teacher and helicopter instructor pilot . Im sure even with pay cuts you will get a flood of people wanting to join my organisation but you pay to attract the best and brightest. people analytically skilled who can work complex investigations. Thats what has been recruited to make this arguably the best staffed force in the world for human resource.

      as for your run ins with guards again like other points you make that i have disproved your attitude signify how you will be dealt with. show the proper respect, address the person politly and as Garda and you will be addressed as sir. I give what i get . Mind you, the vast majority of people we arrest make complaints sure thats all they are good for in alot of cases upset they got caught red faced. Ive seen people headbutt cell doors and second they are out side start screaming look what the guards did to me. we get that alot lol. if force is used its justified in order to protect the garda and even the prisoner. I dont accept you saying as i know it to be very different. from a garda that was once upon a time based in Dublin.

      anyway disengaging now i feel you moving way off topic here and that you have your own negative agenda, that from my experience comes being brought to account by gardai enforcing the laws of the land working for the people of the land

      Reply
    • @ Kal. You obviously missed the point 6 years ago the diploma in police studies was replace with HETAC so on the national framework and is now a degree in policing studies

      Reply
    • I have no agenda. You deny my experiences yet I have had much less contact with Garda than you. Two news reports posted and no Garda revealed the information. Video proved a Garda lying. It happened and proved in court and you say it doesn’t happen IT DID!
      You disapprove attitude of my experience! What are you smoking! I am not some ex-con wearing a track suit who abused Garda and venting. I am a member of the public who has been dealt with badly. You are also suggesting I deserved their behaviour as I didn’t treat them nicely.
      Being told to get out of a cycle lane and cycle on the road by Garda. Big criminal obeying the rules. He refused to look at the sign right behind him. Very politely assuming he didn’t know. His fellow Garda wouldn’t get involved.
      The whole point is the public will not support you enough and it is your own reputation. He took my details for not complying his orders.

      Reply
    • well actully one reply as in fairness i did not read the first story you published. not sure if thats same guard who resigned from the force (google name) but if a guard gives false evidence then its of course wrong and a huge betrayal of public trust but rather then go into that more id honestly wan to see that video myself first. As for your second story post i covered that one guards done wrong and they were charged for it but remember its guards who charge so we go after our own for wrong doing. of course there are some bad eggs out there you will get that in any large organisation but 99% of the guys i work with i would trust them to do a good fair job.

      Now im done :)

      Reply
  • the denial by the garda in court is ignored for perjury in the case above and the taking of babies out of their mothers arms is now truth to day as in the report by Dr mc Aleese The genocide on the part of the state and it gang from the courts to the gardai and the legal profession is now clear

    Reply

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