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Dublin: 10 °C Thursday 23 May, 2013

Column: How much has Ireland paid for the EU banking crisis?

Ireland has been declared a ‘special case’ by Angela Merkel – and these figures show exactly why, writes Michael Taft.

Michael Taft

WITH CONSIDERABLE speculation about an impending deal on bank debt, with the Taoiseach and the German Chancellor jointly stating that Ireland is a ‘special case’, it is helpful to remind ourselves just how special a case we are.

Eurostat, the EU Commission’s data agency, has calculated the cost of the banking crisis in each EU country.   The following focuses on the cost to general government budgets.  Ireland has really taken one for Team EU.

Really Special Case 1

Yes, there’s wee Ireland up at the top, just edging out Germany for the dubious title of spending the most on the banking crisis.  €41 billion to date according to the Eurostat accounting data (this doesn’t count the billions ploughed into the covered banks from our National Pension Reserve Fund as this was not counted as a ‘cost’ to the General Government budget).

Of course, this doesn’t give the best picture.  What happens when we look at the cost as a percentage of GDP?

Really Special Case 2

Ireland may not win football’s European Championship but when it comes to banking debt we are Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Manchester United all rolled into one with Real Madrid for a bench.  Germany may have run Ireland close in the nominal amount of banking debt but when it comes to a proportion of GDP, it is just pennies behind their sofa. For Ireland, it’s the entire house.

Here’s another little stat to chew on.  The European banking crisis is just that – a European crisis.  But as we know, this has not been addressed at European level.  Rather, the cost has been delegated to individual countries regardless of their size or ability to pay.  For instance:

  • Ireland makes up 0.9 percent of the EU population
  • The Irish economy makes up 1.2 percent of EU GDP

Ok, we’re small.  So how much of the entire European banking debt have we paid?

  • The Irish people have paid 42 percent of the total  cost of the European banking crisis

We may be minnows when it comes to population and economic size, but when it comes to banking debt we are the whale in the pond.

One more breakdown.  How much have countries paid per capita?

Really Special Case 3

The European banking crisis to date has cost every individual in Ireland nearly €9,000 each.  The average throughout the EU is €192 per capita.  I really don’t know what you can say after that.

So, Ireland is a really, really special case.  We require a really, really special solution.  The Government (and we must always remember that this mess wasn’t created on their watch) has a real challenge in the negotiations over bank debt.  But there is a bottom-line here.

If any deal does not qualitatively alter these dismal statistics, then it won’t be a deal worth applauding.  The Government may be tempted to return to the Irish people waving a sheet of paper claiming ‘a bank debt deal for our time’.

But if are still paying nearly €9,000 each while the remainder of the EU pays only a fraction of that, then it is no deal at all; just a re-arranging of euro notes – a lot of euro notes – on the decks of a sunken ship.

Michael Taft is Research Officer with UNITE the Union; author of the political economy blog Notes on the Front where this article originally appeared; and a member of the TASC Economists Network.

Read more articles by Michael Taft here>

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Comments (220 Comments)

  • A question that I would like answered is
    Apart from Ireland, has any other soverign nation ever taken on the debts of a public limited company?

    Reply
    • Public limited companies! ebs, aib (3 times in the last 25 years), boi, inbs, Anglo, followed by Quinn insurance.

      Reply
    • @ Frank Cluskey, even the USA was unwilling directly to bail out certain banks, Lehmans etc.

      It is socialism to provide social protection and other social supports. It is socialism to look after the poor and the disadvantaged who have never received social equity.

      It is capitalism to save Banks and the wealthy from the consequences of their own greed and recklessness. Capitalism is virtuous and socialism is evil.

      It is morally good to not to let the bankers be in distress. It is morally evil to help those who never benefited from the Celtic Tiger, never contributed to the economic collapse and did nothing wrong.

      It is morally good to bail out those who destroyed our economy by their greed and hubris.

      Ask yourself, how many bank directors have ever been restricted or disqualified as directors for irresponsible or imprudent management?

      Reply
    • thats my point ciaran.
      this has never happened in any other country
      its immoral and incorrect
      we have gone against all the principles of the free market capitalist sysyem, and i think the real reason is to save the euro.
      the correct thing to do on the night of the gurantee was to gurantee the savings of the irish citizens to a certain amount and let everything else fail.
      we were offered a bailout on the condition we save the bondholders and that stinks to high heaven
      we had a gun put to our heads.
      john noonan has a duty to the irish people
      he has a duty to get us a deal by using any method he has at his disposal and if he doesnt he has a duty to release the triochet letters to prove that he did everything possible to secure a deal.

      Reply
    • very well put peter
      it amazes me sometimes when people say ahh sur the bondholders had to be paid
      in the free market where these people do business the rules are, you pay your money and take your chance, why did it change all of a sudden, we didnt make upthe rules they did,
      the night we bailed out the banks we broke capitalisim

      Reply
    • In the US they had a mortgage write down process in return for not being investigated by the government to see how they would justify some of these loans.

      They got a lot wrong too, but not quite as much as us.

      Reply
    • Yes Frank.

      The US has done it time and again. The Savings and Loans crisis in the 80s, the more recent TARP and the Federal Bailouts of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The UK government with Northern Rock. Sweden bailed its banks out in the early 90s after a property bubble. Iceland has officially taken on the debt of the collapse of the Icelandic banks in 2007.

      I’m sure there are others as well.

      Reply
    • UK govt owns 85% of RBS, US govt also bailout BOA. So yes is the answer to your question.

      Reply
    • @Frank- the UK bailed out a raft of banks. In fact, it happened all over Europe. Our banks were proportionately much bigger compared to the state.

      Reply
    • @frank- “it amazes sometimes when people say ah sure the bondholders had to be paid”. In your previous post you recognised “we had a gun put to our heads”. So why the amazement?

      Reply
    • Vincent it amazes me because it was wrong to side with the banks instead of the people which is what government is supposed to do

      Reply
    • @frank- it’s also wrong to give your wallet to a mugger. But if, as you say he has a gun to your head and the alternative is oblivion….

      Reply
    • Peter you are bang on with your comment the banks run our politicians they run our courts god help any one going up against a bank or anyone attached to a bank.

      Reply
    • Bit over the top with the oblivion reference Vincent. it is true when the mugger puts a gun to your head you hand over the money but what also is true is that you report the crime and let the relevant authorities investigate and apprehed the criminals responsible.

      Reply
    • Vincent proportionately doesn’t even come close.

      Reply
    • @Jim
      Thanks for answering my question and I stand corrected.
      Censored had already answered the question and he gave an indication as to why.
      It would be interesting to know per capita how much bailing out these private institutions cost each of these countries.
      My other point was that if we are operating in a free capitalist market why did the laws that govern the market suddenly change. Who gained by keeping these dead ducks afloat?

      Reply
    • Jim I would also like to point out that with the crisis involving fannie may and freddie mac the cost of bailing out both of them was bourne evenly across the united states of america wheras the cost of bailing out the euro was bourne in full by one of the smallest nations within the eurozone

      Reply
    • Can I ask why my comment/question was removed..?

      Thank you.

      Reply
    • @Frank Cluskey above……..
      You referred to Ireland as a “”Sovereign Nation””… Did you know that the Irish government is NOT, I repeat NOT a Sovereign government and therefore has no legal authority to sign any debt onto the Sovereign people of Eire…

      Did you know that..??

      Regards

      Seamus…

      Reply
    • Fair play Seamus, Thanks!

      Reply
    • censored 16/01/13 #

      When you say even the USA was willing to bail out the banks, don’t forget they went into this with their eyes open – our lot certainly did not do this.

      Look at what happened with Chrysler as an example (I think it was Chrysler) – the banks thought they had the government over a barrel and were unwilling to negotiate a sufficient write-down on their loans. The govt negotiator didn’t blink and they ended up going into bankruptcy.

      As a result the banks were much more cooperative in dealing with the other automobile companies.

      There IS something fishy about the way we do this in Ireland.

      Reply
  • Ha ha ha…I laugh only to hide the tears.

    Reply
  • Enough to make me and a few hundred thousand to emigrate.

    Reply
  • Our grandkids will still be saddled with that fateful decision to guarantee all banks, by that inane twit, biffo!

    Reply
    • Brian Lenihan signed the citizens into slavery, although the entire government was culpable.

      Reply
    • FG and SF also voted for the bank gaurantee lest we forget.

      Reply
    • Sinn Fein initially supported the guarantee but withdrew their support once it was extended to a blanket guarantee. It is disingenuous in the extreme to claim they supported the guarantee without giving the full facts.

      Reply
    • Norman, its a very big pity you still dont know the truth about the Final Bill. FF and FG both supported the Bill in its entirety including the bailout of the bon-holders, SF voted only in support of protecting depositors up to a max of 100k, but they voted against bailing out the bond-holders. Labour voted against supporting any depositors. They said they voted against the full Bill, on a technicality, but they supported it, in all aspects.

      Reply
    • David 15/01/13 #

      SF voted for the bank guarantee scheme. Fact. Everything after that is just political point scoring. They are as guilty as every other politician and party that have done nothing for the country. ALL of our so call politicians should be ashamed of these figures, and their traitorous actions.

      Reply
    • Try harder david, it was only a few years ago. People remember sinn fein withdrawing their support once the guarantee was extended to include bondholders.

      Reply
    • David 15/01/13 #

      @weregammin. SF’s continued pitiful effects to score political points on here is getting boring. Take your blinkers off…SF are as guilty as EVERY other party in the Dail for their inaction. Every politician that has been elected and continue to allow this to happen are traitors to the Irish people and State.

      Reply
    • David, maybe you are right….
      and after voting for the bill, SF managed to convince RTE that morning to pretend SF voted against it. haa haa … man, some people need to stop smoking the funny stuff, before making big broad statements, as if they are fact.

      http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1017/economy.html

      Just in case you dont want to click on the RTE link, it is report of the Dail vote… 114 votes in favor, 22 against
      It was published Monday, 20 October 2008. It says RTE voted against the Bill.
      You have been listening to the FFG./FF/Labour spin and manipulators, who will distort history to suit themselves… always have, always will.

      Reply
    • SF, not RTE voted against the Bill … i must be inhaling some of that whacky backy smoke coming out from some of the other commentators … Peace Man.

      Reply
    • @ Devid. Where are SF scoring political points on here?

      Kinda ironic post considering you’re on here scoring points agains sinn fein when they’ve nothing to do with the article.

      Reply
    • David 15/01/13 #

      SF human spambots trying to hijack this story while ignoring that their party have elected politicians in the Dail doing nothing. You want to talk history and about what SF did in the past, no problem. Instead of defending any politician or political party, after reading this story you should be calling for them to hang their heads in shame.

      Reply
    • Yeah right, it’s all the fault of Sinn Fein who voted for the banking guarantee. But they didn’t. FFsake/FG distraction bots are go! That’s to paraphrase some of the more inane comments that appear each and every time anyone points out who is responsible for this huge mess: Brian Cowen and his wonderful patriot friends in the brown envelopes of destiny party.

      Reply
    • David 15/01/13 #

      @werejammin. Not anti SF. And maybe I’m galloping around on a high horse, but the tone of some of the comments was allowing some politicians to wash their hands of our current circumstances. I know what happened years ago but this article shows that since the ALL of our politicians have been impotent. I don’t care about political points or the blame game, but I won’t give any of our useless politicians a way to avoid their current responsibility and uselessness.

      Reply
    • “I don’t care about political points or the blame game”

      Yet you’re feebly attempting to score political points against sinn fein for blaming them for something they can’t be blamed for.

      Good man.

      Reply
    • Cal mea cupla thanks for the clarification.

      Reply
    • Cal, my response went to the wrong place thanks for the heads up and link.

      Reply
    • It wasn’t just Biffo, it was his entire party. Brian Lenihan, Micheal Martin, Willie o’Dea etc etc are just as culpable. The FF member and voter played their part as well.

      Blaming Biffo is just the start of it. He only played a part in the sordid tale of treachery, greed, ignorance that destroyed this country and going by the polls nearly one in five voters have no problem with the destruction they wrought.

      Reply
    • While politicans are supposed to be able to make big decisions, lets not fool ourselves, they don’t. Thinktanks are paid huge money by governments to advise them on economic matters. So who advised the government on that night and what vested interests had they. A gun was put to the head of this country that night by banksters that ensured either way they were going to get their pound of flesh. Planned from the start in the name of neoliberalism, a economic theory devised by the super rich to steal the wealth and power from the vast majority aided and abetted by a designed political system and corrupt politicans. We’re fubar.

      Reply
    • I don’t belong to any party but I am really tired of every debate being whittled down to SF’s past even when it has nothing to do with the subject matter – a la Enda’s constant reminders on the Jean McConville case.
      Either we have rational arguments on the important issues of the day or we just throw the towel in and stick with the schoolboy bullying tactics that passed for ” a great Dail performance” like the good ‘ol Biffo days – look where that got us!

      Reply
    • Up SF, up SF, UP SF actually UP ANY party but FGouls and FFails!!!!!!!! Again….UP SF all together lads so David can hear….. UP SF

      Reply
    • @Norman- Government are in place to govern. The bank deal was an emergency measure. Neither Fine Gael nor Sinn Fein were briefed on an ongoing basis by the banks, the Dept. of Finance or our European Partners. In the dark and with the country rocking, neither party had any choice but to take the Governments assurances that it was but a liquidity problem at face value. Labour opted to play party politics instead, secure in the knowledge that FG, SF and FF would get it through the Dail. Reserve your ire for those in power at the time.

      Reply
    • @pat- yes. Shinners would love for the country to move on and forget the crimes they have been associated with. I’m sure their victims could care less if you’re tired of listening to reminders. It’s a little bit more real for the bereaved, I suppose.

      Reply
    • censored 16/01/13 #

      As others have already pointed, why is that every story about the economic crisis created by FF/FG is always turned into a story about the troubles by FF/FG trolls? Lads, the distraction tactics are not working.

      Reply
  • The two elderly people found dead in the Dublin flat died of the cold !!!.
    This so called government have reduced our most fragile citizens to dieing of the cold !!!.
    Well done on making sure the bondholders and bankers are paid,well done…

    Reply
    • Just heard that on the news,I fear its not the first and wont be the last,cold is getting worse ,the bankers won’t care sitting by there laptops on the beach,ARE YOU STILL AROUND ENDA?HANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME YOU TRAITOR

      Reply
    • Do you think that Micheal Martin or Bertie or Biffo will give a toss either. No, nor do I.

      Reply
    • I read it was carbon monoxide…

      Reply
    • That was suggested earlier after the original story that it might of been a gas leak was ruled out Conor. The medical report found the cause to be hypothermia.

      Reply
    • Jesus- there are no depths to which you people won’t descend to attack this Government. It’s ye who should hang your heads in shame. Leveraging the deaths of two vulnerable people is reprehensible. Read the story. It wasn’t a question of two people sitting in the cold without a shilling to pay for heat. Sorry to disappoint ye. That’s not to say it wasn’t tragic.

      Reply
    • No question then of questioning the hugely inefficient state energy monopolies in Ireland such as the ESB and Bord Gais which have ensured like the tariff protected industries of old that Irish people are ripped off on energy prices to pay for feather bedded employees driven by their own sense of entitlement, executives with an eye for the main chance and the oppression of any competition or efficiency by corrupt state sponsored monopolies?? No doubt with highly paid ad and PR agencies in the hugely competitive Dublin media village.

      With old age pensions higher than UK, dole twice what it is in the UK and Germany and higher winter fuel allowances is this really a story about money or mental illness and social withdrawal?

      Reply
    • Mike, I would do your research on that particular case a little more thoroughly….. Im not suprised to see comments of this nature. The couple were 67 and 61 i beleive so Im not sure that is clasified as elderly…My parents are in their 70′s and I dare not refer to them as elderly!!!
      Do your reserach and that case might just suprise you…

      Reply
    • Ah that’s different so Declan,sure that sheds a different light on it and justifies it… Are you for real !!!
      I have read some cracking statements since I joined the Journal site and this has to be one of the best yet.

      Reply
    • Mike, read the details of the story before you bang on about on here!!! There is no fault on the Goverment in that case and to use it in this situation is a disgrace.

      Reply
    • you would know all about that declan!

      Reply
    • Frank,
      We have been here before. Don’t comment or address me in any form! I will extend you the same treatment.
      I have no interest in getting into some slagging match with you…None at all…so just move on!

      Reply
    • Declan as far as im aware this is a public forum and no blueshirt muppet will tell me what i can or can’t
      comment on!
      So just move on!

      Reply
    • J2DD 16/01/13 #

      @ Vincent Dolan
      Stop using every single comment to defend our clearly immoral government ( I say immoral as that is how Enda Kenny describes someone who would tax a persons home). Regardless of the circumstances surronding those tragic deaths, and I assume you are illuding to the fact that the were found to have consumed a large quantity of alcohol, no Irish citizen should ever be in such a vunerable position. The fact that they had consumed large ammounts of alcohol does not mean they were simply alcoholics. It could mean that they were using whatever they had left in their home for some form of warmth as they could not afford food or heating.
      So sorry to disappoint you mr Dolan. Read the story again, and this time perhaps take in the scene in the videos and/or pictures attached to it. They lived in a house which although small, appears well cared for, with flowers in a well maintained garden. Not something that would be done by degenerates only concerned with wasting what little money they have on alcohol.
      We now live in a soceity where our elderly are viewed as second class citizens, not by the people, but by the government. Heating allowances were cut in the budget…the WINTER budget. How far will this government push the people??

      Reply
    • Frank,
      I reported the last comment. Do hope j.ie act properly and remove it.
      I want nothing to do with you… I have said it before and I will say it one last time. Leave me alone. I find you offensive and rude.

      Reply
    • J2- I was alluding to the fact that their heating was fully operational. It just wasn’t switched on- for whatever reason. You tell me how a Government stops two people locking themselves in their own house and switching off the heating in freezing conditions?

      Reply
    • The big man Frank!!! Well able to refer to people as muppets from the safety of a chair behind a computer screen…

      Reply
    • It wasn’t carbon monoxide

      Reply
  • This means we have the largest proportion of dickwads in government per capita of any EU country on a truly monumental level.

    Reply
    • Also some of the best paid. Someone’s laughing….

      Reply
    • I think we secretly always knew that but it’s just so obvious now with the scale of this crisis that we can’t not mention it. We never wanted to admit that our own little country was riven with petty officialdom obsessed with self interest. The Elephant in the room just sat on us (OK I wanted to say something rhyming with Sat) and we sorta can’t help bringing it up now, even in polite conversation…..

      Reply
  • Holy shit 42% of the entire European banking debacle. Really? Im shocked that its that high a percentage.

    What % have the Greeks paid?

    Reply
  • if you want to know whats wrong with this country just look at the burger story 2 hrs 60,000 views and over 300 comments. this one and a very important one 3hours 7,000 views and 90 comments .I rest my case

    Reply
  • David 15/01/13 #

    We can complain about faceless political parties and nameless societal structures, but these figures leave me speechless, and baffled. None of our politicians care about Irish people, or Ireland.

    Reply
  • Felt sick reading that.

    Reply
  • I will say it again. Its wasn’t a bailout that we received it was a loan that we are paying back with interest.

    Reply
  • Governed by morons. What a shock.

    Reply
    • tom 15/01/13 #

      Make you wonder in who’s interest does FF and FG make these decisions without the mandate of the people who elected them.

      Reply
    • Wasn’t it Lenihan who told us it would be the cheapest bail out in history…..really proves he had no idea what he was doing at the time ….

      Reply
    • The Bank Guarantee was a defining moment in our history – a copper fastening of our destiny as a Grade A basket case. There’s nothing like a well thought out strategically insightful initiative and the Bank Guarantee was nothing like a a well thought out strategically insightful initiative. Brian Lenihan was a clever and trusting individual from an ERA when you could trust your bank manager – sadly both are gone.

      Reply
    • Who are the 26 thumbs down morons is what I wonder? After so much evident statistics, proof, logic, common sense, admission of wrong doing from politicians, apologies from politicians there are still brainwashed people, almost certainly FG or young FG who blindly follow their masters…even to their own death…..shocking…

      Reply
    • Of course the fact that we’re paying more because we as a nation borrowed a disproportionate amount is just skirted over. Always the victims. It’s never our fault.

      Reply
    • I, like most people, didnt borrow any of that money pal. I am paying my mortgage. So don’t fall into the ‘we all went mad’ argument.

      Reply
    • Ballyer – where did you get ur mortgage, from the fairies at the end of the rainbow on the yellow brick road to Timbuktu ??? – u may be paying it, but if ur paying a mortgage, u borrowed the money

      Reply
    • Ballyer- “Pal”; I’m sure you benefitted from the lower taxes or more likely higher welfare that came from the conspicuous consumption that defined the Celtic Tiger. If I had a Euro for every person who insisted they didn’t go mad during the Tiger years I could pay off the bank debts myself. Strange considering the car, house and holiday sales over those years.

      Reply
    • Vincent the troll. Sounds like it was yourself that went abut mad while riding the tiger and hope to dilute your culpability on stupid news forums. I also did not benefit from the tiger years, as did not most of the country. Speak for yourself only troll, if you dare to be so honest!

      Reply
    • Who needs a dictate when a govnment controls a populace of self defeating, institutionalised bunch of idiots. Hey Moran apparently when you refer to “WE” do you speak about yourself, did you borrow beyond your means?……many many didn’t and are paying for “your” sins….

      Reply
    • First, great article by Michael Taft & really shows up politicians and other economists & ‘authorities’ for failing to properly describe Ireland’s situation.

      The full cost of the bank bust & bail out – to save bond holding banks in other countries – around €70 billion should be a Eurozone matter, not just Ireland’s.

      And there need not be a cost to anyone at all – the Euro has an issuing central bank which can & does create money from thin air. It could cancel every cent of this €70 billion cost/debt without consequence. With such deep recession & so many unemployed there is not slightest chance of inflation arising from this.

      Second, to ‘Vincent’ & other similar Trolls still peddling the ‘we-all–partied’ bullsh1t’.

      The vast majority did not gain much anything (most lost) in real terms because of what we paid in the increased cost of housing whether in rents or inflated prices for the dirt the building stood on. And people are still paying. Ordinary citizens are also paying indirectly in the higher prices of everything driven by inflated, extractive, ‘pyramid’, ‘upward-only-rent-review’ commercial & retail property rents.

      There has been, as yet, no ‘bust’ or significant losses from domestic mortgage lending. (There may be some trouble to come here, as arrears continue to climb, but the fault is the recession & lack of employment – the result, not cause of the mess.)

      Ireland’s banking bust was entirely to do with massive projects & ponzi operations of property developers & commercial property speculation – a lot of it not even in the Irish republic.

      So let’s get it straight, the only ‘party’ going on was the same one that has continued for most of the top few percent. The rest of us were getting nothing more than would be normally expected working for a living during a period of economic & population growth. There is no responsibility whatever on the vast majority of Irish citizens, or indeed ordinary citizens elsewhere.

      Reply
    • @Mike
      Thank you for setting the record straight but I fear your correct observation will fall on the deaf ears of the institutionalised party sheep!

      Reply
    • Vincent I’m a bit perplexed as to where you stand on this issue
      During previous conversation we have had you put all your eggs in one basket and told me that if ireland didnt get a bank deal you would have to consider your party loyalty in the next election. Looking at your comments on this particular thread and other articles, you feel that the irish people are to blame for the debt problem we find ourselves in. Now if you believe the latter why do you feel we deserve a deal on debt.
      I also would like to point out that the Irish people are still indebted up to their eyes and that the only people who were bailed out were the speculators and gamblers.
      We as individuals still have the debts which are manifested in the huge mortgages we pay each month.
      So yes we did go mad as our gallant leader has stated to the europeans but the madness is still with us, the only people who have had debt relief are the banks and speculators.

      Reply
    • @eoin- do you know how to spot a clown on here? They’re the ones calling anyone who disagrees with them a troll.

      Reply
    • @frank- I believe the Irish people are neither to blame, nor blameless. They played their part- as did Europe by forcing us to pay unsecured bondholders. A bank deal which reflects this would be appropriate. For the record, I’m Irish. I’d happily take complete absolution of the debt and not worry too much as to the fairness of that resolution.

      Reply
    • @mike- see my comment to Eoin. By the way, there is an alternative name to “Trolls” for people who disagree with you. “The Majority”. Want proof? Take a look at the Government benches

      Reply
    • Ah Vincent, neither to blame or blameless, that is very weak and in fairness. if you read your posts you do blame the Irish a tad more than you blame the real culprits but im not going to fight over it.
      I think Mike Halls contribution is a fair assessment and I think you do too.
      I know your Irish and I agree any way this gets sorted doesn’t matter.
      its the most important time in the history of this island and Enda is just not doing it for me.
      I have agreed with you that he is a decent man but the results speak for themselves
      Lisbon bungled, the childrens referendum bungled, this crack that has rumbled on for the last while on bank debt him saying one thing the europeans saying another, We are staring into the abyss and Enda is no Ed Harris.

      Reply
  • Paddy is a fine chap. Paddy can be relied upon not only to do the right thing but to do even more than that. So, Paddy may grumble a little about the austerity measures but he will step up to the plate when required. The Government and senior civil servants are buffered against real financial hardship. So, let’s impose lots of little taxes, cut back on social supports.

    We have a desperate need for respectability, any any cost.

    So, let’s not rock the boat, let us take deprivation in good grace and for the vulnerable , well sure that’s just life.

    Let us accept our fate calmly, with dignity and know that we deserve no better than patronising pats on the back from the rest of Europe. Paddy is a great fellow all the same. You have to respect him!

    Reply
  • Part of the problem is that ordinary Germans and a lot of European politicians have no idea of the scale, or the facts about, the injustice that befell us. Instead of having a taoiseach with a backbone ramming facts and figures down the necks of Europe as a whole, he appears on tv telling everyone paddy lost the run of himself/got greedy etc. when the truth is we were forced by the ECB via a government of incompetents to take on debts that were never ours.

    Reply
    • Paddy’s massive annual deficits over the past few years were Paddy’s fault. A combination of an cretinous public, and a government that had never heard of the idea “Balanced tax base”

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    • What do you mean a “cretinous public”, how many carers got massive loans from banks to look after sick and elderly relatives? It wasn’t the ordinary people of Ireland who got us into this mess, it was the builders and bankers who made the cardinal sin of believing their own propaganda, thing that the bubble would never burst.

      Reply
    • Blueshirts have made notorious mistakes in the past and this is just another in a long inglorious line of them. Slavish followers. We are being led to our doom by fools. God help us all.

      Reply
    • Ed Anglo’s debt is €42 billion. Pretty damn sure I didn’t borrow it. Did you and if you did pay it back please?

      Reply
    • “Paddy’s massive annual deficits over the past few years were Paddy’s fault.”

      Actually, no Ed they’re not. Our deficit last year was 18 billion, and we paid 18 billion out in banking debt. No banking debt=no deficit

      Reply
    • @harry- remind me. Who voted in Fianna Fáil over and over again with one instruction- keep the party going please. The electorate is culpable.

      Reply
    • J2DD 16/01/13 #

      @Vincent
      The electorate vote on the promises made to them by the politicians. They then can only hope that said politicians will live up to their word. If you want to persist with blaming the politicians of the past, then why not go all the way back to Richie “Ruin” Ryan, who drove Irelands foreign debts to previously unheard of levels in the 70s. Something we spent almost all of the 80s recovering from. That dark spell inevitably contributed to the general public enjoying the good times of the celtic tiger as it was something that the majority were completely new to. Is it the publics fault that the already rich decided to risk the new wealth to further line their pockets? No. Are those same fat cats standing with the general public suffering the consequences? NO!
      Get off that FG bandwagon and join the rest of us in the real world.

      Reply
    • censored 16/01/13 #

      Vincent, really? Can you remember the position being advocated by the opposition? FG morons wanted a bigger gravy train. They did not do their job properly. Most people who warned of impending disaster were shouted down by the political establishment, just like they’re currently trying to shut down public/media discussion with scare stories about bullying and negativity. Who is the real enemy of democracy in this country?

      Reply
    • J2- I can’t understand how it is that so many of you on here purport to be in tune with the people and yet it’s Fine Gael and Labour in Government. Doesn’t quite tally, does it Citizen Smith?

      Reply
    • @censored- that’s the thing about being in opposition: what you say is immaterial. It’s what you do in Government that matters.

      Reply
    • Thanks J2DD, @Vincent remember these:- “not a another red cent for anglo” – vlad, “keep A&E services at Roscommon hospital open” – kenny , “Fine Gael in – Government will force certain classes of bondholders to share in the cost of recapitalising troubled financial institutions” – FG Manifesto. FG said they would cut the number of junior Ministers to 12 instead they appointed 15. A salary cap, except for kenny’s “special advisers” . How do you know when a politician is lying? Their lips are moving.

      Reply
    • censored 17/01/13 #

      In a parliamentary democracy the opposition is supposed to help keep the government accountable. Shouting for a bigger gravy train is the opposite of that. FG failure #1.

      As a last resort we stupidly elected FG, after years of believing they were simply too dim to be in power. Only to find that yes, we were right all along. FG and FF are the same. FG is the slightly dimmer twin.

      Reply
    • J2DD 18/01/13 #

      @Vincent
      There was a record low turn out at the last General election. The people therefore saying, FF are not worth voting for, but neither are the rest. Unfortunately that means that FG got in by default.

      Reply
  • If anyone is in any doubt about how ireland and the irish people have been screwed by irish politicians that are supposed to be representing the best interests of ireland and the the irish people just look at the shocking figures above. All irish politicians involved in geting ireland into this mess should be brought to court and tried for treasion. All the Irish men and women who died to bring democracy to this country must be turning in their graves.

    Reply
  • the sad part of it is, ourselves and our politicians spend more time argueing as to who was to blame than trying to solve the problem. we, as a people are at complete odds with our government on the subject.
    i am not shirking responsibility and either are a lot of people. our debts are still with us. all thats happened is the banks got bailed out. we still have our mortgages for the completely overpriced houses we bought in the boom which are going to take us the rest of our lives to pay off if were lucky. the irish people will pay their debts but the irish people will not pay the debts of the money speculator.

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  • we have been screwed

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  • The cheapest bank bailout in the world – yeah right. These figures are absolutely staggering. They just go to show what an appalling appalling “job” the previous government did. I use the word “job” here loosely because the only thing they seem to have concentrated on was ensuring their own pay, expenses, perks severance packages and pensions were absolutely world class. Never mind the pesky job of regulating the banks, the property market and ensuring the economy is healthy. Looks like we the taxpayer got a really good deal for all the money we gave our politicians (and continue to give them). Ahern, Cowen, O’Donoghue, Hanafin, Martin, etc etc. The current lot are just continuing in their footsteps.

    It is unbelievable that not only have none of these people been brought to task for their appalling mismanagement of the country, they are in receipt of crazy crazy pensions that were set by themselves at the peak of the celtic tiger and are light years removed from our current financial reality!! Is this country for real?!

    Reply
  • THIS IS DISTURBING! Along time ago I was told not to be led by your beard and go with your gut instincts and make the right choices…….. Irelands beard has been shaven while it’s leaders have been sleeping! Saudi oil was overthrown by US exploits in the 60′s 70′s just like Ieland will be owned by the EU in the years to come! Shame on you Enda!

    Reply
  • MVM 15/01/13 #

    The people will pay or they will take everything..fg have no morals nor do they care about Irelands citizens

    Reply
  • Nydon 15/01/13 #

    Excellently clear presentation of the data! Brilliant!
    However, I’ve two questions….

    (1) What is the ratio of our contribution towards the solution relative to our culpability for creating the European Monitory problem?
    While we did over-borrow and under tax during the boom, I doubt that our recklessness was responsible for the majority of the problem we wound up paying so dearly to solve. The majority of the financial recklessness was attributable to the wholesale bankers and investors based on the continent – not the local retail banks and developers.

    (2) If it’s costing every person in Ireland about ?8,000 is there any chance that I could get , say ,a ?12,000 loan from the credit union and pay that over to the EU and be done with this whole austerity craic?

    Reply
  • Who signed the deal? That’s all that matters as that person and the government they represented should rot in hell for making their cronies rich while Irish families are destroyed.

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  • And yet not one politican, banker,top civil servant,developer, is suffering ,
    What wad it the retired FF TD,s collected last year , €2million ,
    SHAME ON THE IRISH CORRUPT TO THE CORE POLITICAL SYSTEM and shame on those PARASITES happy to ride this system all the way to twit bank a/c,s , and finally SHAME ON US ALL FOR CONTINUELY ACCEPTING ALL OF THIS

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  • Not one red-cent FG must be very proud of coming top of the list for anything in Europe. Not a bit of wonder Enda got european of the year.. Europe love this guy. FFG/Labour continuing FF policies since the start of 2011. They got into power on a false pretext and should resign immediately. When Gilmore said, Frankfurts way of Labours way, he obviously meant that Labour was going to Frankfurt.

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  • Come on now boys and girls,for our 9000 euro per person did we not get a nice shine trophy, we should take to the streets one and all and hail our king Enda shower him with roses ooo sorry we shower him with a criminal wage and a pension fit for a king,is this a man of the people or a EU lick arse, answers on post card to Angela keeper of the Irish people’s money.

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  • What did Ireland have before we joined the EU? What did we get after after joining the EU? What deals were made between our government and EU? Who benefited the most after joining the EU? The truth is we will not know in our lifetime, because those who made the deals on behalf of Ireland will do everything in their power to hide the truth.

    So when we look at the hard cold facts that are represented in this article…. We must realize that we aren’t in this mess because of dumb luck!

    Reply
    • The EU didn’t do this to us, it was our own people who destroyed us.

      Reply
    • Irresponsible German banks flooded us with cheap credit. They oversold and like any sales person who sells to clients that can’t pay, these German banks must reap the consequences.

      They also manipulated the market values out of all reason, which is the only way fractional reserve banking can operate. It is the biggest problem we face – a totally unsustainable boom to bust banking system. that’s what must change

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    • @keith- grow up. I don’t remember German storm troopers marching into Anglo, AIB et al and forcing our banks to borrow at gunpoint. They’re not our mommy. You’re like those clowns who complain that the banks gave them bigger mortgages than they can pay back. It’s your responsibility to make sure you can pay back what you borrow. No one else’s.

      Reply
    • Vincent. .. You are so right. We are in a world where people look to blame others for their own mistakes.

      What I find most humorous, is the fact that are government with our taxes are truly seeking away to bail these mortgage takers out. What a laugh!

      Reply
    • @marlon- it’s only funny until our taxes are paying for our neighbours house!

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    • Here, here…. Sometimes I feel tbat I’m the only person who spent within their limits.

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    • Marlon & Vincent your arguments is very flawed. Why pay any one eles’s debt that is what you are saying! so why are we the people paying for the banks and greedy ones Sean Quinn and the like who made massive money and even bigger gambles??? if we are going to be paying any one else’s debt and I had the choice between banks , business men and bond holders or my help my neighbour with their mortgage it would be my neighbour every time. You seem to forget while working you can pay your bills we had as close to full employment as is possible in this country in 2005-2006 so people are willing to work so dont come back with crap facts are facts.
      Vincent you should do some growing up and see all of this as it really is see the you tube videl “money trail” on the great depression in America and who caused it .Very same with us the private central banks turned of the money tap thats why it was first called a liquidity crisis as you agree with, how do you think it happened if it wasnt orchestrated by the pulling of credit?? you are of a fg persuasion I can see so your comments i wont be waiting on as I know what the will be. But just had to counter your propoganda and bull….

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    • J2DD 16/01/13 #

      @Vincent and Marlon
      Perhaps you can explain how the people who borrowed from “financial experts” are at fault for the over inflated prices on their homes?
      Typical story of the last 6 years.
      Joe Soap goes to his bank. I would like a mortgage to purchase a home please.
      Bank asks ” how much would you like?
      Joe Soap “Well I would love to buy a house close to my family home and where I work, but the price range their is quite high. They are looking for between 350k and 400k. Those homes were only 100k 2 years ago so I cannot justify that. I’m thinking of moving 2 towns over. Houses there are between 200k and 250k.
      Bank: ” Well you would have to factor in things such as the cost of commuting to this town, not only for work, but for family visiting. I would suggest one town over, the houses are still cheaper but will save you in travel costs, plus you could buy a 4 bedroom house for the price of a 2 bed here in town. Plus in a couple of years time, the 300k you spend on that house can be increased when the value goes up. With that money you could buy a 3 bed closer to home”
      Joe Soap: ” Well that does sound good, but wouldnt the mortgage be out of my reach? I dont have the full deposit saved up for that large a mortgage. By the time I save it, those houses will be out of my reach”
      Bank: ” Well we offer 100% mortgages for first time buyers here”
      Joe Soap: ” Really? And I qualify?”
      Bank: “Of course, you have a good job and as I said, the value of you home will increase over time”

      Cut to now
      Joe Soap: “My house is currently worth 100k and is in an unfinished ghost estate. Even if the economy recovers, my house will never be worth what I owe on it. My wages have plumetted and my bills have sky rocketed. What can I do?”
      Bank: “Well Joe, unfortunately thats the risk you take when buying a house. I must warn you though, if you fail to keep up your repayments, you may lose your home.”
      Joe ” You can have it. Its worth negative 200k anyways. Sure take it back and I’ll head to Canada”
      Bank” Joe, you are still liable for that negative amount. We will of course work with you to pay that back for the rest of your life. Your credit rating will obviously be affected by this”

      So lads in your opinion, Joes next reply should be
      ” Ah sure what can I do. I’m the idiot that trusted a highly paid expert group who not only advised but persuaded me against my better judgement that borrowing this amount would come back and bite me. As long as the bondholders are protected its all ok. And sure, the kids and the elderly can take up some of the slack too. They’re no use anyways, dont pay any taxes.”

      Reply
    • J2DD! Thanks for taking the time to set out a scenario. I guess the key points are this…. Joe Soap wasn’t entitled to house. If the deals sounded fishey then they were fishey. I was offered a ridiculous sum of money for a mortgage when I was looking to buy some years ago. I chose not accept. The deal was too good be true. I was also worried what would happen if my employment situation changed. Now I happily rent a huge place with no debt.

      Joe Soap should of remembered if it sounds to good to be true…. Then it probably isn’t true.

      Reply
    • Marlon
      The people of this country still have these debts, and if we are given a chance we will repay them, but what the people of this country will not pay for is the speculation and gambling debts of a 100 or so individuals

      Reply
    • @declan- please. I beg you. Read my response. Please.

      Reply
    • Marlon if the day comes and i hope it never does when you loose your jop like thousands of other people have in this country and other countries through no fault of there own, who’s going to pay the rent for your huge place then?

      Reply
    • Micheal. .. I quit a great job in the US to move here. I chose to leave family and friends so that I could experience the land of my great-great-grandfather. Something I wanted to do since I was a child. I really thought I could make a difference here. Since living here, I have lost three different jobs. Yes it was traumatic. Yes I felt lost. Loosing a job without a safety net of family and friends is horrible. What is even worse is when you don’t know where your next euro will come from.

      I’m sure I will loose another job before this crisis is over. Regardless, I see my self as fortunate. If I loose my job…. I’m sure I will survive.

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    • Sorry Marlon but you did not answer my question. if you are out of work for an extended period of time, Who’s going to pay your rent?

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    • Sorry about. .. I will pay my own rent. Low rent plus money saved, equals roof over my head for an extended period of time. That is how I will pay my rent. I have very little debt and my outgoings are low.

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    • Marlon as i said before your argument is flawed in relation to your situation and rent etc. Seen as you left family and friends can i take it your on your own? me personally I could rough it out with the best of them ,small place cheap rent in the wrong neighbourhood etc yes i could do all that but I would ask or want my family to do that. Every one wants to do the best for their kids and we in Ireland have a correct belife in home ownership so really when you add these things up it equates to a mortgage of some sort. What you like or belive in is not what every one else may belive in so from that point you cant blame anyone for buying a home for them selves and their family, the fact that the might have lost their job is no reason to blame them and saddle them for debt while the government turn and ask that same person to pay a private debt for the high rollers i.e. bankers bondholders and property developers etc.
      any way hope your enjoying your Ireland.

      Reply
    • Vincent I suggest you need to waken up to the reality of what has been forced on our society. Three times in the past 100 years German power mongrels have attempted to take control of Europe and in the process made a total mess of it.

      You appear immensely ignorant of the selling processes that were implemented at all levels throughout society. You show an ignorance also of the business processes that were not safeguarded and also a denial of the fallacy of fractional reserve banking.

      Grow up? Wise up! Waken up!

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    • Like, for example, the gambling debts of. German banking house?

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    • Totally agree Declan, it is wrong for someone to suggest that anyone in this country that in all good faith took out a mortgage to provide a future and a home for them selfs or there wife and kids are at fault for the mess this country now finds it self in. Let us also not forget that our government bent over backwards encouraging people to take out motrages and buy there own homes. Now not only must people pay back there mortgages to the banks they are being told they must also pay back the money that the banks borrowed in the first place to provide them with a mortgage.

      Reply
    • J2DD 18/01/13 #

      @Marlon
      Fair play to you for having the good sense to be able think that way. Unfortunately the majority of Ireland had never experienced good times before the boom, so the natural reaction is to become overawed by it. The select few that supposedly had the education and knowledge to predict this collapse, didnt. Yet they are the ones who profited from it. The housing market didnt collapse because of Joe Soap getting a mortgage of 300k on a house now worth less than half of that, it collapsed because of greedy investors borrowing millions and then defaulting. Joe Soap is still paying his way as best he can. The big spenders arent, but are still living the good life. That is an unjust society.

      Reply
    • J2DD, I’m with you on this point. As an American. .. I am accustomed to quick and speedy trials and fair judgements. My largest frustration with this country is the extended lengths with which the system goes to avoid trials and prosecutions. First sending a case to the DPP for investigation which the findings have no leagle baring. Then on to the Gardi for re-investigation. Then on to a tribunal. Th3 cost of m9ney and time is outrageous. Furthermore, the fact of warrents being honored. How many perpetrators fled this country with money in their pockets and debts to the public? Hopefully in time I’ll be able to understand it all?

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  • 42%? That’s daft.ie

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  • Suckers. Or in the language of our masters Saugnäpfe

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  • Excellent article which puts into context the economic havoc landed on our country by this bondholder bailout. I would like to see another piece which includes the €20 billion stolen from the Pension Reserve Fund and the billions which we have pumped into NAMA, much of which we will never see again. The full cost of the bank bailout is staggering and cannot and must not be shouldered by the Irish people.

    I would encourage everyone who opposes this looting of the Republic to join CAPTA , the Campaign Against Property Tax and Austerity (formerly the anti Household tax campaign.
    We are organising the fight against this unjust tax and the austerity program generally being imposed on the Irish people to pay for the gambling losses of the financial speculators. Go along to your local meetings and get involved.
    http://nohouseholdtax.org/

    The County Councils had the legal authority to take people to court over non payment of the Household tax. There they faced fines of €2500 and penalties of €100 per day if they failed to register for the tax. None of this occurred and the threats and bluster from the authorities evaporated because the mass boycott made it politically unacceptable. The government eventually conceded defeat when they abandoned the courts cases and passed the parcel to the Revenue.
    In the same way, a mass campaign of civil disobedience including a boycott of the Property tax can make the new draconian powers of the Revenue redundant. They have the powers but they will be unable to use them if large enough numbers of people refuse to co-operate with them.
    We are also asking for the support of the unions in this battle. The bulk of the staff of the Revenue Commissioners are members of the Unite and CPSU trade unions. It would throw a huge spanner into the austerity engine if those workers engaged in industrial action and refused to administer this unjust Property Tax.
    We are calling out to the members of UNITE and the CPSU to stand beside us in this fight.

    Reply
  • zebedee 16/01/13 #

    Wow!…I mean Wow! How in the name of jaysus did we let this happen? Taking one for team EU is an understatement. “I’m Sparticus” springs to mind.

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  • Are these figures real. I just looked out the window and the street lamps are on, how are we paying for them? Compared to the figures for the rest of Europe, it just looks unreal. A picture of a man pushing a wheel barrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread during the German hyper inflation after WW1 comes to mind.

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  • I saw two financial markets experts on tv last week as speculation rose of an “impending deal”. what the pointed out was, a deal is only a deal when you get some thing, as you would in a shop with a tv e.g. a price reduction. So any thing less than a write off of all or a substantial part of the amount is a failure. A “deal” on paying the full amount but spreading it out over a longer term is just optics the said and ends up costing more in the long run.
    Now that is what the did the last time and Noonan delayed the announcement until Enda got back from his travels to be there and it was noting more than optics, just allowing our grand children and children not yet born pay these private debts.Any deal i suspect will be more of the same.bullshit dressed up

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  • we were mugged plain and simple !! hate to say it but our politicians are a bunch of souless, brainless morons…dear god above help us !

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  • My oh my. What a nation of shit kicking inbred peasants we are. All of us. How the Hell can anyone ever mention the “looney left” again??? Surely its time to move away from the “ridiculous right” and do something drastic. For the craic. Thats all we good for anyways. Its like we are married to this type of politics but haven’t the Henry halls to say its over. The serial beatings and relentless rapings are a big part of the reason the relationship isn’t working. Balls to counselling, we want out. We take the kids, you can have the friends. All of them.

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  • Will this post be picked up or discussed on RTE? Or Blueshirt106? Will we get a receipt? As James Gogarty might have said “Will we f….”

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  • 42% is a disgrace. How did we let this happen?

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    • Brian Lenihan came across as a very sincere man, so people believed him even though it was obvious he did nothing but lie. His party, also pretty much made up of liars and hoods dominate every facet of the media and society. All adds up.

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  • GDP???? Why use GDP in the example? GDP includes all the money that the multi-nationals will repatriate after availing of the double-Irish/Dutch sandwich. It would have been better to use NDP which is a measure of the amount of money/business that remains in Ireland.

    Since NDP is lower than GDP, the percentage of NDP spent bailing out the gamblers in the bank would be higher than 25%.

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  • Just a question, if there’s approx 100B on one side and approx 7B on the other, what’s happened to the 93B?
    On a sidenote France has done quite nicely out of the crisis hasn’t it!!

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  • The bondholders need to be taught a lesson for the future not to speculate wildly with peoples livelihoods. They can and must be burned. Investors won’t be interested in Ireland UNTIL we get rid of our debts.

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  • Simon 15/01/13 #

    That’s shocking!

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  • Can I have some lipstick? I’d at least like to look pretty while you f*ck me.

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  • Wake up Arbitasure! This lack of leadership has taking the food from our childrens mouths let alone education, heating, lighting, personal property….. with NO econmic stimulus to get this country rolling! These austerity budgets are here to stay! There is nothing good about the present or past leadership or the systemic oppression it puts on the most vulnerable in our society! These cuts are unacceptable and draconin! Preformance inprovements.. I dont think so!… Gains, gains with no deficit! Idealy everyone would like no deficit but the world goes round with debt… it’s fundmentally flawed! Keep Europe intact, what about the people of Ireland! Thinking” Europe” is the wrong way to go… mirco economics will boost this counrty not macro/euro economic management!

    Reply
  • Adam 16/01/13 #

    Amazing how our backs haven’t cramped up yet being bent over for so long.

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  • It shows what a bunch of muppets we have negotiating on our behalf in Europe at the moment. There was a time when we were able to get deals which we weren’t really entitled to but we had good people out there. Now we are just a bunch of “yes men” in Europe.

    Reply
  • And a piece in the FT yesterday from the EU stating no deal on banking debt!!

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  • Michael, what portion of the overall debt was run up by Irish banks?

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  • To Frank Cluskey above……..
    You referred to Ireland as a “”Sovereign Nation”"… Did you know that the Irish government is NOT, I repeat NOT a Sovereign government and therefore has no legal authority to sign any debt onto the Sovereign people of Eire…

    Did you know that..??

    Regards

    Seamus…

    Reply
  • Interesting how the union leadership are all over the place now just in advance of new negotiations of a replacement Croke Park deal. Agenda much?

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  • State guarantees as a percentage of GDP, 2010 – 2011
    For 12 countries, the amount of state guarantees as a percentage of GDP did not exceed 10%. A share of less than 4% was recorded in Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Bulgaria, Latvia and Romania. State guarantees accounted for between 12.2% and 18.0% in Finland, Portugal, Denmark, Belgium, Malta and Slovenia. The highest value was registered in Ireland (110.3%), followed by Austria (38.1%). Portugal and Ireland recorded the highest relative increase compared to the previous year with 6.6 pp and 4.0 pp respectively.
    Decreases of between 4.3 pp and 2.2 pp were noted for Austria, Belgium, Slovenia and Denmark.
    European Commision July 2012

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  • I remember having a conversation with somebody who said that in hindsight Brien Lenihans decision to pay the debts of the bank from public funds will be seen as the right one. Really it has just been turning the finance market on its head. Banks gamble, lose, someone else pays. Not fair, how our elected TDs just don’t refuse to pay for the private debts, of private funds is beyond me. It’s the old Shaw quote ” when a Government decides to rob Peter to pay Paul they can always count on the support of Paul”. I am still waiting for any reason why I should pay for a fund managers bad, greedy decision.

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  • @ Vincent Dolan, I see that you are comfortable, all is well and you can pay your property tax. Good for you. You are doing well.

    I note a quality of “I’m all right Jack” in your pronouncements. You have no empathy, no understanding of the misery of others and no concern for the wider interest.

    You are hard enough, cold enough and unfeeling enough to be Taoiseach. Enda could take a leaf out of your book.

    Yeah, blame the victims!

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  • To Frank Cluskey above……..
    You referred to Ireland as a “”Sovereign Nation””… Did you know that the Irish government is NOT, I repeat NOT a Sovereign government and therefore has no legal authority to sign any debt onto the Sovereign people of Eire…

    Did you know that..??

    Regards

    Seamus…

    Reply
  • The question really should be “How much has the EU paid for the Irish Banking crisis, their collective sense of unreality and unfounded sense of entitlement?”

    The Irish Myopia continues, as Brendan Behan once remarked “The Irish are very popular with themselves!”

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  • Makes you wonder why our government never used this kind of information in their negotiations on our behalf????? Are they stupid to ignore the leverage this gives us, as virtually the saviours of the European Banking system?????

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  • Nobody seems to have said it yet but the Irish people that have shouldered the burden deserve at big pat on the back!

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  • Ah sure lads at least the politicians get their pensions or over twice the rate of the average industrial wage.

    I mean come the politicians are responsible for creating the conditions to let the bankers lose all that money. So we cant blame them for actually creating the problem.

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  • This mess was not created on the present governments watch. Just as well. If we followed their suggestions while in opposition we would be in an even bigger mess. They shouted spend more,more and more from the opposition benches and lambasted the Government for being too prudent.

    While it is impossible to defend Fianna Fails record in Government, their biggest legacy may be that we now have a toothless opposition. This allows the present administration to pick up where the previous one left off. Desenting voices are riduculed and the petty minded party political politics is alive and well in dear old Ireland.

    Whether Fianna Fail recover or not, it is simply not good enough for the present administration to blame all their woes on Fianna Fail. As I suggested, there is no defending Fianna Fail, but to ask an insignificant Irish Political Party to shoulder all the blame for a World Wide Recession, does indeed seem a somewhat fanciful notion. No doubt, if and when there is a turn around in World Economics the spark will have been lit by a small band of merry men and women from an Irish Co-alition. The figures above show just how strong our leaders have been (as they promised) in negotiating on our behalf in Europe.

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  • Michael,
    Perhaps you can answer me? Did Irish banks and developers and consumers borrow this sum? In other words I assume the moving being paid back matchs the money borrowed in some way??

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  • It’s not really €9,000 each now is it?Some aren’t paying a cent ,why don’t they hit the people in their council houses for more rent and cut the dole in half,I think then we would see a revolution and us ‘middle class’ could sit back and watch someone else carry on the fight against austerity. I for one am sick paying out good monies to this shambles of a government

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  • Mr Taft, I really dislike your anti EU propaganda. What’s the role of the EU? To just solve any problems any of the member states run into? The banking crisis in Ireland came to light in 2008 and from the start till late 2010, the Irish Government tried to solve this by itself. This period is when most of the Irish taxpayers’ money was spend. Over 2010 the irish government spend over 31.5 bln (by then totaling to 35bln, 86% of the 41bln) which again didn’t solve it. This forced the government to reach out to the EU for help. They negotiated the 85bln bailout needed to fix this. Are you saying that the EU should have seen this coming and should have solved this instead of us? Why are the German taxpayers paying over 40 billion for a crisis they’re not even part of? Ireland was out of control and made some really bad choices from which we’re now suffering. Let’s not ask the EU to thank us for paying so much for a crisis we created ourselves.

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    • We is a word reserved for banks, investers and those at the top in the know. We ordinary people didn’t cause this. We ordinary people haven’t got the capacity to deal in that amount of money

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    • Incorrect Jerry G. The ECB forced the Irish government to request the bailout. Check with Noonan he has the letter that threatens to cut off funding to Irish banks unless the government requested a bailout.

      Also can you detail what exactly the EU has paid for? They have lent us money and are charging interest on it but they have not paid for anything. Can you provide proof the German tax payers have paid €40 billion to “fix” the Irish bank problem? Or do you mean they have lent us that amount and are being paid back that amount plus interest?

      The German are part of this crises do a bit of research and check out the performance of some of their banks and the difficulties they are in.

      Your welcome to defend the EU but really Jerry G. Try and have some facts to back up your claims.

      Reply
    • censored 16/01/13 #

      Jerry, I suspect you either didn’t read the article or you didn’t understand the numbers.

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  • Bren Dan 16/01/13 #

    42 % ???? How is that possible , cmon ted youre having a laugh .

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  • Good article. Ireland will get bailed out for this Herculean effort to keep Europe intact. Enda, all signs indicate, has a deal near done and hopefully he gets the fair credit for his and Noonan’s strategy on fixing the mess they inherited from the FF morons who can be fairly and squarely blamed for inflating the bubble, neglecting to regulate and then agreeing a guarantee.
    Regardless of the Banking disaster and the Troika, as a taxpayer I am glad to see most of the cuts being implemented.

    Reply
    • Were we not already bailed out? What a foolishly naive and insensitive to the suffering comment.

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    • You don’t seriously think we’re going to get all that we put into the banks do you? The heavy weights in Europe couldn’t give two shiney sh*tes about this country just as long as their banks are fine. This whole farce is controlled by a handful of people minding their own interests some of which are included in our witless government. I would think we’ll be lucky to get half it back but that’ll be spun by Inda and Co as ‘monumental or some other such phrase.

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    • That’s grand,we’ll put that on the two headstones of the pensioners that died of the cold or the other old age pensioners that are too frightened to go outdoors.

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    • FG/Labour have made a very bad situation worse and have been the ECB’s Vichy government.
      Remember Kenny informing the world media that the Irish people were mad. Suckers may have been more appropriate.
      The Irish have been net losers of monetary union along with those periphery nations foolish enough to sign up to this ponzi scheme. Then FG/l intimidate the population into fiscal union which will have equally damaging effects for Ireland.

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    • @Sean – I said as a taxpayer I was glad to see ‘most’ of the cuts. I was not including those that are hitting the suffering.
      I am including the huge savings that have been so easily identified in the bloated set-up that are our public services.
      Handing over huge amounts of income tax to pay some unmotivated goon with a job for life and a pension, who themselves know are overpaid and adding zero value is gradually, hopefully, being finally dealt with. I hope Croke Park II is a totally different deal to kick the freeloaders out, and properly respect those valuable people in the public sector who truly care about their jobs and are giving 110%.

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    • M Bowe 15/01/13 #

      Get a grip man the goons at the top are STILL getting their top wages and pensions. The cuts have hit the middle and lower earners.

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    • @sean- The Taoiseach said the country went mad. I lived through the Celtic Tiger. Maybe your memory only goes back to the start of this Government but those of us who don’t suffer from amnesia can very much testify that he was right.

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    • censored 16/01/13 #

      Your esteemed Taoiseach also said it wasn’t our fault. Who knows what he’s saying today, it seems to depend on which way the wind is blowing.

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  • Here’s a question for the author. As a research analyst for the Unite Union maybe you can tell us how much per head the extravagant pay rises “negotiated” across the public sector through benchmarking, industrial action etc costs the Irish tax payer?

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    • and equally so, why does the benchmarking in line with private sector pay only work when you are raising the pay??? why isnt it dropping now in line with private sector pay??? is that not what the benchmarking principal was??? croke park is a load of feckin lies. more public sector lies

      Reply
    • censored 16/01/13 #

      It would be good to see another story on that alright. That said, are you trying to distract us again?

      Reply

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